How close were we?

[Radu]

A while ago I found out that Romania had a nuclear weapons project. It was shut down in 1991 due to international pressure. I recently came about this interesting article on it:

Abstract:
The missile technology of the FRG weapons concern Messerschmidt- Boelkow-Blohm (MBB) has apparently been supplied to the Eastern Bloc, specifically Romania, from Argentina via Egypt and Iraq. A large nuclear plant presently under construction in Romania is similar to ones in Iraq and Egypt, according to an engineer involved in their construction. The US has been concerned about alleged illegal exports by FRG firms to the Eastern Bloc and Third World nations, especially Argentina, Iran, Iraq, Syria and Libya. Bonn forced MBB (FRG) to abandon its Argentine deal in 1985, but its subsidiary Transtechnica continued to supply sophisticated missile technology to Argentina. The Consen group, a conglomerate of Austrian, Swiss, and FRG companies, mediated the deal. Consen was also involved in MBB deals in Egypt and Iraq, and developed special camouflage tactics in the Iraq deal. Five FRG firms are listed as being involved in questionable deals: Walter Thosthi Boswau (WTB) International AG, the Swiss subsidiary of WTB (FRG), BBC Mannheim, Siemens, Nickel, and Schaeftelmaier. Swiss Austrian and Italian enterprises are also involved. Romania granted a $200 million (US) loan to Egypt, for further development projects, in 1987. On 20 April 1989, Romania's industry minister signed a cooperation agreement in Baghdad, Iraq.

COUNTRY ABSTRACT:

Following a meeting of the ruling communist party that ended 14 April 1989, party leader Nicolae Ceaucescu announced that Romania was now in a position to produce nuclear weapons; "equipment and machinery of all types" - including intermediate-range missiles capable of carrying nuclear warheads, according to an insider. The allegations concerning FRG missile aid to the Warsaw Pact may poison the atmosphere surrounding US-USSR talks in the near future. Complaints, official and otherwise, have been filed with the US Senate about FRG dealings with Pakistan, Iran, Iraq, Syria and Libya. The Consen group, a conglomerate of Austrian, Swiss, and FRG firms, has been involved in deals between the FRG and Egypt, Iraq and Argentina. Consen developed special camouflage tactics for the deal with Iraq - all deliveries reach Iraq through Egypt, usually without visas to leave no traces. According to secret service reports, two intermediate range missiles are ready for testing in Argentina. Work in Romania has probably reached the same stage as in Iraq; Bucharest has already made arrangements for further cooperation. In 1987, Romania's Ceaucescu granted Egypt a $200 million (US) loan. Romania has also signed a cooperation agreement with Iraq.

http://www.nti.org/db/nuclear/1989/n8905144.htm

Do you believe what Ceausescu was saying? How close were we and would history have taken a different course if Romania would have been a nuclear power?

[dead-cat]

the articles writes about delivery systems not weapon grade nuclear material. iran has delivery systems since quite some time. the problem is producing enough weapon grade plutonium.

[Florin]

QUOTE

......... The missile technology of the FRG weapons concern Messerschmidt- Boelkow-Blohm (MBB) has apparently been supplied to the Eastern Bloc, specifically Romania, from Argentina via Egypt and Iraq........

Argentina and Egypt had a joint research, design and development program, to obtain their own long range missile, called "Condor". Both countries gave their research and cancelled the program, because of the strong pressure of the United States.

[petru]

I think we were pretty close of making an A bomb. We had pretty good scientists. I know that in 1992 the International Atomic Agency found about half a kilo of enriched uranium. But it is a huge difference between producing enriched uranium and acutally making a bomb that you can deliver with a rocket.

[dead-cat]

we had zero experience with enrichment processes. we did not have a reactor until very recent. in theory how to make the bomb is well known and documented. for U-235 enriched to "bomb-grade" uranium, the critical mass is around 15 kg. so 1/2 kg is not really close.

[MuddyBoots]

There are many countries in the world have the know-how but choose not to. Here, click on the image to read more

Or you can choose to think about it this way: as members of NATO we will be protected by a nuclear arsenal able to remodel Earth into Mars not once but a couple of times.

[Florin]

[quote]........we did not have a reactor until very recent........[/quote]

It would be good to know what system of reference you use when you say until very recent
(Example: In the evolution of life on the Earth planet, the human species did not exist until very recent.)

Now, returning to the reactor, there was one near Bucharest, at Turnu Magurele, functioning since the late 60's. But as far as I know, it was a small size type, got from the United States. It was identical with the one received by South Africa, also from the United States, also in the same period with Romania. But the South African guys (those from the good old times) went so far as to build 6 atomic bombs. This if you don't count the 2 they successfully tested: one over the Indian Ocean, and one in a full scale empty city specially built for this in Kalahari ("Light, more light", as Goethe said :idea: ).

Maybe when you said "very recently" you may considered the complex at Tirgoviste, before 1989. I did not know that Romania had there another reactor.

By the way... How is our CANDU stuff?
Regards,
Florin

[inahurry]

I think you meant Pitesti not Targoviste. Magurele reactor, near Bucuresti where the Bucharest's physics faculty and other physics research facilities reside also, well, if they're not strangled by the new "progress" we witness after '89 is not American to my knowledge. Has no capability of making enriched uranium. But the knowledge acquired since the 70ies in the nuclear field, including industrial knowhow to build heavy water reactors and also heavy water plants was considerable. No doubt Romania could have built (have no idea where they could test them) atomic bombs. Not sure if they would have increased or endangered our security.

[inahurry]

I didn’t know but it looks like the old (soviet) reactor is going to be dismantled. It’s another blow for the Romanian industry, I don’t think there’s another one that produces radio-isotopes. Long live foreign corporations that will provide everything we need for free.

“Emilian Dragulescu, directorul general al Institutului de Fizica si Inginerie Nucleara (IFIN) "Horia Hulubei", a declarat, joi, agentiei MEDIAFAX, ca Reactorul Nuclear (RN) de Cercetare si Productie Radioizotopi VVR-S Magurele este un obiectiv nuclear de conceptie sovietica, pus în functiune în iulie 1957, fiind primul de acest tip din Europa de Est. Reactorul a functionat timp de 40 de ani fara incidente, evenimente sau accidente nucleare, pîna în decembrie 1997.” (news from May 2003)

There’s another kind of reactor/particle accelerator at Magurele, newer, but neither that one can be used for military purposes outside pure theoretical research.

And the heavy water plant is near Turnu Magurele (which is an entirely different location than Magurele). Interesting name coincidence though.

[Indrid]

i have heard a story about Magurele. phisics students told me there is a forest somewhere around there and it`s like the twilight zone. no animals, no insects....

[inahurry]

Don’t think so, Indrid. The research facilities are in a forest, kind of, more like little woods. There are other forests not far, depends which direction you take, they’re quite normal places or maybe I was there when ghosts were having lunch time. Couldn’t say the same thing about some place near Cluj-Napoca, scared me to death, real twilight zone there but don’t ask me why, I just wanted to run away.

And, for a previous post, I don’t know if the Romanian bomb would have been an enriched uranium one. My guess is if Ceausescu would have decided to build one he would have withdrawn from NPT and built it in the open which would probably mean a plutonium based bomb for various considerations, all speculative now (and then too).

[Indrid]

Do you happen to know the method of enrichment for the uranium? Centrifuge or one of those enormous gas plants?

[Alexandru H.]

QUOTE

Couldn’t say the same thing about some place near Cluj-Napoca, scared me to death, real twilight zone there but don’t ask me why, I just wanted to run away.

Does it have any connection with a "famous" forest, with very famous UFO sightings?