1878 Romania

It is exact to say that Romania started officialy to exist in 1878 at the Berlin summit when they recognized the independance of Romania or is it earlier?

It depends on what you may consider as 'officially'. The name 'Romania' was adopted and recognised officially in 1862 to designate the autonomous state formed through the union of the Danube Principalities of Moldavia and Walachia. Since then there were several official acts which proved the existence of the state, as was for example the issue of coins in 1867 bearing the name of the state: 'Romania' (see below).


Source: Internet auction

The independence was indeed recognised at the 1878 Berlin Congress, but Romania declared itself independent on 9/21 May 1877. The question is, in case of a successful declaration of independence, is it the date of declaration, or the date when the first (or maybe the last) state recognises the new political status that a state becomes 'officially' independent? I am afraid that we might have to ask a lawyer specialised in this particular area.

Carol I,

I appreciated the info and the picture. I see that there is a lot of dates concerning the independance of Romania: 1862- 1867- 1877-1878. What you and the other Romanians think is the right date?

Regards

The Independence Day is 9 May 1877, the day the Parliament has proclaimed the independence of Romania.

In 1859 the 2 Principalities Moldova and Wallachia united, and formed the United Principalities - the official name.
But the goal of the romanians was the creation of "Romania", the romanian state.
Though the United Principalities were recognised officially, the name "Romania" was not, and the romanian politicians' goals were to obtain the recognition of the unification under the name "Romania", and obtaining independance under this name.
The smaller powers, like Serbia, were ready to recognize the new state under that name, but the greater powers were not. Because the recognition of the United Principalities in their view did not mean recognising their independance too.
The great powers were ready to recognise the new name "Romania" on condition the new state retains its vassal condition, and its lack of independence.
So the romanian politicians refused the compromise, and so the recognition of the official name of "Romania" had to coincide with obtaining the full independence. It was a political decision, because if the political compromise would have been chosen "Romania" would have come into official existence in 1859 or shortly after, but it would not have been independant.

I hope I was as clear as possible, looking back, it does look a bit unclear. If you want something better clarified, please feel free to ask.



take care

Then, what is the meaning of the inscription 'Romania' on the 1867 coins or on the 1872 stamps?

Hi Guys,

Similar questions can be raised about the date of US independence.

The US declared independence in 1776, but it only became a formally recognised state with the peace treaty which was, I think, in 1784.

I had great fun teasing my American friends that they had got the timing of their bicentennial celebtations wrong in 1976. I maintained that it should have been in 1984.

Cheers,

Sid.

From what I know the Romanian Mint was established in 1870, so I dont know what that 1867 coin could be.
So I dont know, we need more details about that coin.


For sure the term "Romania" was present in political speeches ever since 1859, but I am not aware of the 1862 official recognition of the term. Can you please give more details about that, its interesting. I know that up to 1868 the United Principality government tried to convince the great powers to recognise the new "Romania", so whats with the 1862 recognition? Please tell more.

I'll also research more on the subject,

take care

Carol, in the material I have, 1962 is the date of guarantee power recognition of the principalities' unification (no word of them recognising "Romania") and in the alternative schoolbook I used in the 12th grade and dug out of my "archive" just now, under 24th January 1862 is listed the first Assembly of the United Principalities taking place. Again, not of "Romania".
So, from that and the fact that the UP's government continued up to 1868 to lobby the great powers for the recognition of their unification under the title "Romania", I am really curious if you know something else about that 1862 recognition.
I have also seen Cuza's speech on January 24th 1862, after that recognition, and he indeed speaks about "Romania".
So yes, the discrepancies puzzle me. I'll try to dig further. Suffice to say the Romanian History taught these days is sublime but lacks entirely...

take care

The Treaty of Paris ending the American Revolution was signed on September 3, 1783.

The first official recognition of the independent colonies was in 1778, when the Continental Navy ship Ranger was saluted by the French. The first time the US flag was saluted was in November 1776 by the governor of Statia in the Caribbean, but that was only because he did not recognize the flag.

"American friends?" Considering your vast erudition, I just assumed you were American.

I also have friends who believe the US should have honored 1984 with more ceremony... but they had entirely different reasons. A colleague of mine had an amusing comic on his wall: at the top it read "National Security Agency" and at the bottom "1984... We're Behind Schedule".

In 1867 the first coins of the state of Romania were issued. The coins were minted in Britain and as stated above they bore the name of the state that issued them: 'Romania'.



The first stamps that carried the name 'Romania' were issued in 1872. Up to that moment, the stamps were marked Poşta Română (Romanian Post).

So it seems that there were several official references to 'Romania' before the declaration of independence of 1877 or the recognition of 1878.

As far as I know, in 1862 the union of the Danube Principalities was recognised by the Ottoman Porte as completed and the dual institutions ceased to exist (i.e., from that point on there was one assembly, one government etc.). I do not know whether at that date there was a formal proclamation of the name of the state which was then recognised, but from that point on it assumed the name 'Romania' and used it officially.

I have to agree to that. It is quite an unfortunate situation.

Carol, in the documents I've seen, several terms are used at the same time.
Romania, United Principalities, Moldo-Wallachian territories, Principalities, or the Double/Dual Election. These are used sometimes in the same diplomatic message.
So its pretty hard to pin exactly when "Romania" became the norm.
I'll check tomorrow in my past issues of "Magazin Istoric", if my memory does not fail, I think they had an article about this some years ago, or was it about the first appearance of the "Tricolor"... well, I'll see what I can find.

p.s. but to be entirely exact, the Constitution of 1866 does name the United Romanian Principalities, the state of "Romania".
I think claiming that to be a safe date for the official "start" of Romania's existence would be OK, with or without independence.
So 1866 should be the date for the , so that the coin you mention in 1867 comes just in time.

p.s.2 So I think that after 1866 the romanian politicians were lobbying the great powers to recognise the new state of Romania, internally officialised thru the Constitution.

So my previous statement :

must be an error, since the politicians DID adopt the term "Romania" in the Constitution.

Sorry for that, I'm the product of the post-89 system, and romanian history we skipped during highschool, because we had the "BAC" coming and we had to learn foreign languages and other things... Since then I'm pretty much trying to recoup by using various documents and sources...



take care

This post has been edited by Imperialist on July 29, 2005 11:13 pm

Excerpt from the history book, 'Istoria României', by Barbulescu, Deletant, Hitchins, Papacostea & Teodor (Corint, Bucharest, 2002), p. 306:

Would someone care to translate it, as I currently don't have the time? Thanks.

Gen. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on July 30, 2005 02:53 am

Here is what I found on this issue:

Source: http://www.stampdomain.com/country/romania/display.htm

Gen. Dénes