Digging the ground......

[Elisa]

I make a new thread even though my statement is somehow related to von Maybachs about the finds in the ground.

Gentlemen - why are you afraid of "haunted" goods in the ground??

Why not simply have some HONOUR inside and saying "no" to exploiting old battlefields? These people died there - so don't steal their insignia etc!! That's corpse-desecration!

Did you know that the Russians are plundering our (German) war-cemeteries?? The grounds in Russia are amazingly huge - and so are the battlefields (where the rats have already plundered during the past)

- BUT - and this is worse -

now they go for the WAR-CEMETERIES (!) and tear them off their rings etc. - it's simply disgusting. Of course there should be the "Kriegsgräberfürsorge" (who takes care of the cemeteries) but as the money is getting less and the fields are endless (and the rats are thousands) they have no chance.

So every happy buyer of a ground finding should be aware that some low human being stole this artefact from a soldier, right from his grave.

Pfui Teufel

[dragos]

Nobody here considered digging the graves. Then, why should it be wrong to dig the battlefields? Personally, as a fallen soldier, I would feel no resentment that somebody would take my insignia for the purpose of cultivating history. Even sold, these items would serve better than six feet under

[RHaught]

Have a friend who owns land in the Baltics and does digs there doing the summer. When they come across a body not in a cemetary the proper authorities are called. What is own the fallen soldier is not taken but what lies away is. So, people who are honest do no such thing just those who are money hungry. Don't assume all battlefield relic hunters run to the cemetaries. Plus, those cemetaries in the former USSR that were German or Axis were given no favor.

[Elisa]

the reason is money - German militaria sells the far best all over the world...so who 'd rather dig out a beltbuckle with a star instead of an SS ring?

BATTLEFIELDS are also graveyards, even worse, for these guys have not been taken care of and buried (with a priest etc.).

I know a guy who has a cupboard full of ground findings - they're mostly rusty, broken - so the thrill of hunting them is deeply connected to stepping around in the battleground and being "physically" near the soldiers who wore them once etc. - everyone knows that.
it's all for little boys, but still a shame to take dead people's belongings.

btw. if you were a fallen soldier (how funny!!!!) you'd not post here. your jokes are tasteless.

[Florin]

QUOTE

....Did you know that the Russians are plundering our (German) war-cemeteries?? The grounds in Russia are amazingly huge  - and so are the battlefields (where the rats have already plundered during the past)   - BUT - and this is worse - now they go for the WAR-CEMETERIES (!) and tear them off their rings etc. - it's simply disgusting. .....

Elisa,

I am surprised that there is still something remained to be plundered in the German cemeteries of the Russian space. The first thing happening, immediately after the Axis retreat, was the usage of the wooden crosses from the graves of the soldiers (Germans, Romanians etc.) as fire wood, by the locals. You know, in Russia is cold a half of year...
Most of the Axis burial grounds were destroyed in the first years of the Soviet "reconquista". In the 80's, my grandfather talked about the destruction of these cemeteries at past tense. The cemeteries of the Romanian soldiers alone, and considering only Crimea, were kilometers and kilometers of crosses.

QUOTE

the reason is money - German militaria sells the far best all over the world...so who 'd rather dig out a beltbuckle with a star  instead of an SS ring?.....

Few years ago, while walking through Manhattan, I entered in open street flea-markets. There were enough Russians there (now American residents or citizens 8) ) selling German medals, belt buckle, knives etc. I had less money in those days, but even if I would have more, I am not so sure I would buy something.

[Elisa]

friends of mine were in Russia last summer (with the Austrian Kameradschaftsbund) and they saw those corpse-loopers! when they tried to chase them off the ground, they simply waited aside (the grounds are huge) until the group left and - bingo - there they were again.

do you know how many germans/austrians are dead in russian ground?!?!

also - it's not the question of remains such as crosses etc. it's about the honour of taking care of those who fell for us - I mean are YOU Romaians or what? normally in RO the mortii are very well honoured - maybe you are the new generation?

[Florin]

QUOTE

...... it's about the honour of taking care of those who fell for us - I mean are YOU Romaians or what? normally in RO the mortii are very well honoured - maybe you are the new generation?

I am trying to comprehend if your anger target the Romanians now... If so, why?
There is nothing in this topic started with your post to suggest that the Romanians are looting WWII graves. Also, there is nothing to suggest that we, the latest generation of Romanians, have less respect than the previous for the WWII dead.
My grandfather was on the Eastern Front, against the Soviets, and his stories about the looted cemeteries referred to those destroyed by the locals in Russia (i.e. far from Romania).
His 2 best friends died near Simferopol, in Crimea, and he was not happy to know that their graves were destroyed after retreat.

[dragos]

QUOTE

btw. if you were a fallen soldier (how funny!!!!) you'd not post here. your jokes are tasteless.

I wanted to say that I would rather consider my actions while living, not of the things I'm wearing after my death. The taking of the insignia off my body may contribute a little in regard of cultivating history. From a different perspective, after all the atrocities of the war, digging for relics should scare somebody accustomed to the ways of war, very little.

[Elisa]

## Florin - I think my statement concerning the Romanians is very clear, so don't twist it!!

I said (I'm repeating myselves) - that in RO the death are still honored (not like in the west, where consumption is taking over everything and no one cares for ancestors or those who gave their lives for the now living).

So - I mean it in a positive way by pointing out the habits of your people.

## to the administrator - I think the argument of cultivating history is a bit foul - it's been cultivated many times - huge collections of marvelous orders etc. are spread all over the globe - so I don't think a private collection of rusty ground finds will compete with those.

another thing - if you try to apply the habits of war to the action of nowadays gravelooters you make a huge mistake - these people (also those who buy the stuff) have NO IDEA of what it may be / was like back then.

don't put the joystick-generation into the same honorable position of those who fell in that war!

[dragos]

Ok, I didn't wanted to start a philosophical discussion, just my personal point of view on these trinkets. I didn't dig anything out of the ground and I'm not planning to either. But digging the battlefields and discoverying bodies of fallen military has two positive aspects (if the diggers announce authorities): 1) the bodies can be put to rest properly, reburied in a hero's cemetery for example, 2) the bodies may be identified, since most of these fallen military were MIA.

[Elisa]

Dragos in wonderland....

2 very good arguments -

...no doubt, those who loot graves inform the authorities (ho ho...)

...after being plundered no one will recognise their identity (that's what the diging is all about - getting the metal remains (new to you?)

take care! and dream on.

[dragos]

For the nth time, it's not about digging the graves, it's about the barren lands once a battlefield. And read the post of RHaught, not all are infamous gravediggers. You seem to have a fixation.

[Victor]

There was a Russian site (I lost the adress when I mistakenly formatted one of my hard drives) of an archeological organization which dug around Volgograd and periodically buried the human remains it found with military honors. They also found different items in the ground, which some he asked me to identify (a Carol monogram for a Romanian helmet for example, found in a foxhole). Not everybody is meant on looting corpses or graves.
And I personally did not see anyone on this forum suggesting such a barbaric thing.

[C-2]

As someone who was taken by his mother ,who is an archeologist,from the age of 4 to diferent digging sites around Romania,I can tell that there's no better place to find artifacts than a buriel site.My Mother is specialized in ancient history ,so the graves were a few thousant years old...
Digging in a battel field area and finding a grave by chance and giving him the respect he deserved is one think,but diging in cemeteries is an horible thing in my opinion.Not too many years have passed....

[Dr_V]

Gentlemen, first I wanna state my oppinion on this thread. My point is very clear: digging in burrial sites (as graves, wrecks or battlefields) for science and history is usefull and OK. Of couse, I mean doing it legally, scientifically, organised and with propper respect. BUT digging for profit is sick and no motivation will ever justify looting graves for money.

Of course, that's my oppinion and you may dislike it, but I think I'm entitled to have one.


Now, I have a moral problem related to this subject and I ask for your oppinions and advice. I've aquired a small garden in a country town and I've recently found out that there is a Russian soldier burried underneeth. The peasants told me that in 1945 that soldier was shot by his own commander for looting (stealing) and left dead in the street. The Romanian peasants burried him at the egde of that road, in the place where my garden is now. The grave was orriginally marked by a wooden cross, but now that's gone, the actual spot is undistingushable in the 500sqm garden.

:?: My dilema is: should I ignore the grave and cultivate the garden without thinking at it? Should I try to find it (by digging test-pits, I guess)? And if I do locate it, what next? Mark it and leave it there? I wouldn't have a problem with that, I'd make a cross, delimitate the area and than use the garden around. But wouldn't be more propper to exhume the corpse and burry it in the graveyard? Maybe I could find his tags and identify the man, even after 59 years I guess it would be a relief for any surviving members of his family to know what happened to their ancestor. Is this worth, or it's better to leave the grave in peace?

Any oppinion you might have will be apreciated.

V