Romanian Army & Holocaust Claims

[Victor]

Here are some of the events witnessed by lt. av. Eugen "Matra" Marinescu (one of the best Romanian bomber observers, with over 240 missions). Unfortunately only in Romanian.

http://www.virtualarad.net/orizont_aviatic...6/articol_6.htm

[dragos]

Interesting article, albeit it does not seem to be related to holocaust. For those who can't read in Romanian, it is about witnessing reprisals against civilians suspected to be partisans, particularly the execution of a group of women, as part of a series of executions that took part on a regularly basis at Odessa.

[DevanG]

u forgot to say about the story of the subofficer that was in charge with that particular execution ..
it would be nice to know the dmografic situation of the area .. like how many were actually russians , and how many romanians and about the rest ...
that would explain probably some things ...

that's unfortunately the tragedy of was for civilians .. to be caught in the middle ...

[petru]

It was never a Romanian claim of Odessa. Beyond Dnister the territory was only administrated but never annexed. Probably there are few romanians in the area (except the ones that were moved forcefully).

[dragos]

But since it was administered by Romanians, Romanians are responsible for what had happened there.

[Geto-Dacul]

And? What happened in Transnistria??? Nothing that bloody to kill 10.000 Jews, 50.000, 100.000, 200.000, 300.000 or 600.000! The best proof is the trial of professor Gheorghe Alexianu, by a "people's court" in Odessa after August 23, 1944. Alexianu was the only axis "gauleiter" discharged by the Soviets, from the total of 11 (10 Germans and one Romanian - all the Germans were executed).

And I hope nobody is stupid enough to try to contradict this : The Soviets had all the interest to find enough proofs to condemn the "fascist warmongers", judged on their soil and by their authorities. So facts are facts.

Unfortunately, the Romanian "People's Court" condemned him to death on May 17, 1946. That was mainly because of his past activity as a Romanian anti-communist bourgeois and professor in law. Alexianu was executed on June 1, 1946 in the same lot with Marshal Ion Antonescu, Mihai Antonescu and General Vasiliu.

Getu'

[Geto-Dacul]

Petru wrote :

QUOTE

Probably there are few romanians [referring to Transnistria] in the area (except the ones that were moved forcefully).

Till the 19th century, Romanians formed more than 60% of the population of the lands between the Nistru and the Bug. At the time of Miron Costin, those lands were controlled by the Romanian principality of Moldavia...


In ancient times, the region was inhabited by the Tyragetae (the Getae of the Nistru - Tyras = Nistru).

In the 19th century, Russian deznationalization brought the land to its actual ethnic composition ; the Romanians being found mainly along the Nistru, sometimes in compact groupes, sometimes mixed with russophones.

Best regards,

Getu'

[dragos]

QUOTE

And? What happened in Transnistria??? Nothing that bloody to kill 10.000 Jews, 50.000, 100.000, 200.000, 300.000 or 600.000!

What do you want to demonstrate with these numbers ? Below 10.000 is a convenable account ? The question is whether there were orders for systematic killings coming from the top, or not.

QUOTE

And I hope nobody is stupid enough to try to contradict this : The Soviets had all the interest to find enough proofs to condemn the \"fascist warmongers\", judged on their soil and by their authorities...

I don't believe that the Soviets made a habit in finding the truth in their trials.

QUOTE

... So facts are facts.

Which are... ?

[Geto-Dacul]

dragos wrote :

QUOTE

What do you want to demonstrate with these numbers ?

I want to demonstrate that maybe even 1.000 were not executed by Romanian troops, just because they were Jews. Yes, there where executions, I will not deny this! The Romanian HQ in Odessa was destroyed, there was intense partisan activity and Soviet diversion. Romanians were also murdered, deported, and that in number of hundreds of thousands (since 1940) ; soldiers, civilians from Bessarabia, N. Transylvania etc. Nearly everybody suffered because of the war. But I don't come with bullshit stuff like "who suffered the most" and give me money for this and that, and Romanians killed, killed, killed!.
Dragos, it's all a question of money ; only this stimulates the hundreds of thousands of Jews and Gypsies "brutally murdered by Romanians"... But that's only on paper ; yet we must find the corpses... At Katyn were assassinated more than 5.000 Polish officers, and the corpses were found 2-3 years after the massacre. So you cannot hide hundreds and thousands of cadavers... But hundreds of thousands??? Or are they invisible? Oh, no! I found a better one! Romanian authorities built giant dismantable crematoriums, and the ashes were thrown in the Black Sea!

QUOTE

Below 10.000 is a convenable account ? The question is whether there were orders for systematic killings coming from the top, or not.

Dragos, even killing a single human being is bad if I follow your logic, which is pretty true. But then, I suggest you and Victor (no offense) to shut down this forum because it treats of an aspect of the human being which is purely criminal : WAR. In war you must murder, and you can get murdered.

QUOTE

I don't believe that the Soviets made a habit in finding the truth in their trials.

Why must you arrive to this? I can say to you : GENERALIZATION, but I won't. The other 10 German (nazi) gauleiters were all found guilty of various crimes from the Soviet perspective (of the winner) like : reprisals, looting etc. And they were executed... Why Alexianu should have been an exception? :question:

QUOTE

Which are... ?

Facts are aproximately like this : During the period that Transnistria was under Romanian authority (with Gh. Alexianu as governor), there were no mass killings or massacres. The region was also pretty well administered by Romania. Locals generally appreciated Romanian administration as efficient.

Regards,

Getu'

[Chandernagore]

[quote]Dragos, it's all a question of money ; only this stimulates the hundreds of thousands of Jews and Gypsies "brutally murdered by Romanians"... [/quote]

Bullcrap. You don't understand Jews. They don't need your dirty money anymore. I hate to bring the news to you Geto, but today they have their own State. They want recognition for the past and the present. As long as you deny this you will paddle against the flow of history and most of actual world. Your racist battle is already lost. Don't drag Romania down into the pit with you.

I suggest this : leave your Canadian hut and go live one month in Israel. You will understand much. You speak strongly about people you don't know at all.

[dragos]

Chandernagore, there is no need to be so aggressive. It is not only about recognition, because the state of Israel asks for monetary compensation.

[quote]I want to demonstrate that maybe even 1.000 were not executed by Romanian troops, just because they were Jews.[/quote] (emphasize by Dragos)

Since you are not sure I assume you have no documents or reports whatsoever. The testimonies of eye witnesses shows that systematic executions took place. Then why make hazardous statements ?

[quote]Dragos, even killing a single human being is bad if I follow your logic, which is pretty true. But then, I suggest you and Victor (no offense) to shut down this forum because it treats of an aspect of the human being which is purely criminal : WAR. In war you must murder, and you can get murdered.[/quote]

We don't discuss philosophy but war crimes.

[quote]Why must you arrive to this? I can say to you : GENERALIZATION, but I won't. The other 10 German (nazi) gauleiters were all found guilty of various crimes from the Soviet perspective (of the winner) like : reprisals, looting etc. And they were executed... Why Alexianu should have been an exception?[/quote]

About the Soviet trials, I dare to generalize. The result of such trials was not decided by proofs, but of what was dictated from top.

[quote]Facts are aproximately like this : During the period that Transnistria was under Romanian authority (with Gh. Alexianu as governor), there were no mass killings or massacres.[/quote] (emphasize by Dragos)

You can't play with aproximations here. Either there were, or there were not mass killings ! If you make a statement on such delicate matter, you must elaborate.

[Chandernagore]

(sorry changed my mind see next post)

[Chandernagore]

[quote]Chandernagore, there is no need to be so aggressive. It is not only about recognition, because the state of Israel asks for monetary compensation.[/quote]

Oh but who is being agressive? Me or the one who has the gale to flatly state that whole races are only interested in money ?

For God's sake !

What happened with the properties of Jewish people throughout Europe (if we have become cynic enough to forget about their lives). Is it that much to ask for rightfull retribution (I hate "compensation", it's well beyond that) ?

And we're talking about a state which still fights damn hard for mere survival. They have some excuses too for looking after anything helping.
And no, while at it, you should not identify Sharon or the current Israeli government with the Israel people.

Oh well, I do appreciate what moderating influence you have on people like Getu. I should be less emotional about this. But it's always the same old poison rising up again and again and again. I'm not the one who keeps bringing all issues back to the Jews. I'm just disgusted at the whole process.

[Geto-Dacul]

dragos wrote :

[quote]Since you are not sure I assume you have no documents or reports whatsoever. The testimonies of eye witnesses shows that systematic executions took place. Then why make hazardous statements ?
[/quote]

Dragos, please tell me what is the value of an eye witness, today, considering the philosophy of modern war? As I said before, you cannot hide thousands of corpses, and Allied propaganda should have been the first to talk about that stuff. If you want to be convincing, at a trial or anywhere, you must bring pictures, diaries writen by people who were conscient and there and even films if necessary. Unfortunately, the biggest majority of those so-called reports were made after the war during 1946-1950, in the very well known conditions of detention. Relu pointed out about strange pics of the "Death trains"... I actually have those pics in a book of Stoenescu, but unfortunately I cannot post them on the forum, because I do not have right now a directory.

[quote]We don't discuss philosophy but war crimes.[/quote]

What I pointed out, and you should admit it, is that war is by herself a crime. It's not any philosophy, it is the crude reality.

[quote]About the Soviet trials, I dare to generalize. The result of such trials was not decided by proofs, but of what was dictated from top.
[/quote]

:roll: What can I say more? Stalin had a love for Alexianu. And in this case, prove us that Nuremberg was not dictated from top.

[quote]You can't play with aproximations here. Either there were, or there were not mass killings ! If you make a statement on such delicate matter, you must elaborate.[/quote]

No mass killings occured in Transnistria! If you want, I can post extracts from the report of the International Red Cross. When saying 'aproximately', I was only referring that not everybody liked foreign occupation. There were of course russophones that preferred Russia.

Regards,

Getu'

[Geto-Dacul]

Chandy :

[quote]What happened with the properties of Jewish people throughout Europe (if we have become cynic enough to forget about their lives). Is it that much to ask for rightfull retribution (I hate "compensation", it's well beyond that) ?
[/quote]

Hey, Chandy! I'm wayting to see the day when Israel (or any other country) will errect a monument in the memory of all those hundreds of thousands of Romanians who perished during WW2. As I pointed out in other posts, many local Jews were behind horrible murders against the Romanian population in the territories taken by USSR (Bessarabia and N. Bucovina). Only between July 1940 and June 1941, some 200.000 Romanians were deported and murdered by Soviet authorities, who brought Jews and Russophones to replace the missing locals.

[quote]And we're talking about a state which still fights damn hard for mere survival. They have some excuses too for looking after anything helping.
And no, while at it, you should not identify Sharon or the current Israeli government with the Israel people.
[/quote]

Talking about a cynical behavior! Some 45% of Romania's population is living under the line of poverty. But Israel equipped with the A bomb needs money to survive! The Middle-East lung needs air! And what's Sharon having to do with the topic? Wasn't Sharon democratically elected by the Israeli people?

Anyway... I urge Dragos to be more on the point next time in this question! Because if I would have said about Jews what Chandy or his friends said or insinuated about Romanians till know, I would have been permanently banned! :roll:

Getu'