Romanian Army against Waffen-SS units?

[Geto-Dacul]

Did the Romanian Army ever met some SS units of the Western Front?

Getu'

[Dénes]

In September 1944, during the battle for Northern Transylvania, Rumanian army units did clash with units of the 8th SS-Kavallerie Division 'Florian Geyer'. There must had been other SS units, too (see, for ex., topic regarding Gen. Phleps), but that's all I know off the top of my head.

[mars]

In the battle of Budapest, Rumanian Army did battle with German Waffen SS 8. SS-Kavallerie-Division Florian Geyer and 22. SS-Freiwilligen-Kavallerie-Division Maria Theresa

[Florin]

QUOTE

Did the Romanian Army ever met some SS units of the Western Front?

I read parts of "Romania pe frontul antihitlerist / Romania on the Anti-Hitler Front" about 19 years ago.

In the chapters dedicated to combat in Czecho-Slovakia are certain notes about the SS troops, and a Romanian soldier mentioned how impressed he was about a SS man wearing a lot of decorations, who did not leave his position and fired against the Romanians until literally they reached him and killed him.

Florin

[dragos]

In mid-September 1944, elements of the 4th SS Police and of the 7th SS Mountain Division "Prinz Eugen" attacked towards Timisoara, but were stopped by the 9th Cavalry Division, supported by 19th Infantry Division and 14th Infantry-Training Division.

2nd Tank Regiment faced during 11-14 April 1945 at Hohenruppersdorf (Austria) elements of 25th SS "Hunyadi" and 26th SS "Hungaria" divisions, comprising mostly Hungarian volunteers.

[mg 42]

actually, from what I read, the 7 th SS mountain division Prinz Eugen, made up from germans from the Banat, was active in Uzice ( Serbia ) and Montenegro when the fighting around Timisoara took place.

and, BTW, my grandfather was in the 9 th Cavalry Division.

[RHaught]

The 7th SS did send troops into Romania. The 8th SS is known to have been near Arad (or that region) from what I have been able to find out. 4th and 7th were in Balkans for anti-partisan action which made them ideal to send to attempt to stop the tide. Really do not think the Romanians would have been able to defeat them without the Soviets.

[sid guttridge]

Hi RHaught,

As mg42 noted, 7th SS-Division was not in Romania.

What is more, it was badly defeated by the Bulgarians at Nis, so it is perfectly possible that it could have been beaten by the Romanians.

8th SS-Cavalry Division did attack into Romania along with Hungarian forces in early September 1944 and it had been largely brought to a halt by mostly Romanian training divisions before the Red Army arrived. 4th SS-Division was also halted, as has already been mentioned.

Most Waffen-SS divisions were not exceptional formations and there is no reason to believe that the likes of 7th and 8th SS-Divisions were unbeatable at Romanian hands. Indeed, there is god evidence to the contrary.

The Romanian Army, like that of any other minor power, would have had problems facing the most senior Waffen-SS panzer divisions, but was quite capable of handling the likes of the 7th and 8th.

Cheers,

Sid.

[RHaught]

With the 8th SS, the Romanians wouldn't have been able to defeat it. Experienced division that fought on the Eastern Front and not one of the weaker divisions formed later which were composed mostly of "volunteers". Do believe that some elements of the 7th were ordered into Romania as some historians have shown this in their books. How good was the 7th? That is up to each of us since it was in the Balkans for anti-partisan garrison and believe fighting Tito later. The Romanian army wasn't highly trained as that of the Germans and since the SS were considered to be paart of the elite, the Romanian mountain divisions would have been the most likely units to have success not the regular army. When the 8th was cut off at Budapest it took the Soviets to break it.

[sid guttridge]

Hi RHaught,

We know how 8th SS Cavalry Division performed against the Romanians in early September 1944. It was unable to achieve a breakthrough of inexperienced Romanian training formations. It was definitely not an outstanding formation at any stage. The fact that it was wiped out by the Red Army does not in any way indicate that only the Red Army could have defeated it.

I have never seen any evidence that 7th SS Mountain Division served in Romania. It was certainly formed by a Volksdeutsch former general in the Romanian Mountain Corps and contained a large number Transilvanian Germans who were or had been Romanian citizens. It also had its depot in Serbian Banat, right next to Romania.

However, at the time fighting was taking place in Romania 7th SS Mountain Division was fully engaged in defending Nis against the Bulgarians, where it only managed to save most of its manpower from encirclement and annihilation by abandoning almost all its heavy equipment and retreating over the mountains.

If, as you say, some sources state that 7th W-SS Mountain Division served in Romania, what are they?

The W-SS was as elite as the quality of manpower and equipment it managed to leach off the German Army. Thus, for example, the senior three divisions contained German long service regulars and volunteers and were re-equipped with armour. However, the likes of 7th and 8th W-SS Divisions got second rate Volksdeutsche manpower, much of it conscripted, and when initially formed were largely equipped with Czech and some French weaponry, much of it identical to standard weaponry in the Romanian Army. There was nothing elite about them.

Cheers,

Sid.

[RHaught]

Sid,

The 8th SS was formed from the birth of the SS-Totenkopf-Kavallerie Regiment. Became part of Riechsfuhrer-SS in 41. In 1942 became a division not named till later. This early history would have being drafted with Germans. Later replacements most likely would have been volunteers/conscripts from various regions. The 8th saw frontline action on the Eastern Front giving its personnel experience needed. Would have to say they would be near the earlier divisions (1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th )

Yes, 7th SS drafted men from the Banat, about 15,000 as freiwilligen-gebirgs. As suspected troops weren't the best and might not have given full/proper training as needed.

Most of my books are still in boxes having moved to NYC this past summer. However, pretty sure Third Axis, Fourth Ally mentions it.

[sid guttridge]

Hi RHaught,

If I remember rightly, the SS-Totenkopf-Kavallerie-Regiment served as a security unit in the 1941 campaign, being implicated in a number of the atrocities against Jews and others that illustrate that parts of the Waffen-SS were connected with the extermination campaigns conducted by the wider SS. I think it was later expanded into 8th SS Kavallerie Division using largely Transilvanian Volksdeutsche (this bears double checking). Neither the original Reich Totenkopf men, nor the later Volksdeutsch recruits were prime manpower.

Experience on the Eastern Front was not necessarily an advantage. I think 8th SS Cavalry Division may have been available for deployment in Northern Transilvania in September 1944 because it was recuperating from losses on the main Eastern Front. (I will check).

Cheers,

Sid.

[dragos03]

Romanian units defeated elements of the elite "Brandendurg" commandos in August 1944. I think these special units were better trained than even the best of the SS divisions.

[sid guttridge]

Hi Dragos 03,

That is true.

However, I would add the proviso that the Brandenberger Parachute Battalion was a comparitively small unit that was committed deep inside Romania in almost hopeless operational circumstances. The unit was annihilated and never reformed.

Cheers,

Sid.

[RHaught]

Didn't the 500th do extensive operations in Yugoslavia and Hungary before being sent to Estonia? Haven't seen where they were in Romania. The 600th was sent to Budapest as part of Operation Panzerfaust upon forming. Unless he means another unit instead of fallshirmjajers.