America's entry into WW2

Hi Imp,

You originally talked on this thread of when the USA "entered the war". I would suggest that undeclared invasions or declarations of war clearly mark out who entered the war and when.

However, your current formulation is "involved in the war". As I pointed out earlier, everybody, including neutrals, were more or less "involved in the war". Corned beef tins on every British battlefield attest to neutral Argentina's "involvement in the war", but they are not evidence of its entry.

Cheers,

Sid.

You know very well what I mean. December 7 marks the direct involvement of the US in the war, or the full entry into war, but the US was already involved by giving material aid to Britain and then extending it to USSR.
Not to mention the state of conflict present in the Atlantic. In April 1941 the US Navy attacks its first german submarine off Iceland. In May Roosevelt declares a state of "unlimited national emergency". The US establishes bases in Iceland in July. The Germans also sunk american ships and by september-october 1941 they also attacked US destroyers.
The declarations of war were almost formalities and they only upped the level of involvement. Hitler could very well have refused to declare war, at the ABC-1 Conferences it was already decided that Germany will be the main target in the war.

take care

This post has been edited by Imperialist on June 09, 2006 10:48 am

I'm not sure what fantasy you're talking about Sid. You do know that US escorts attacked Germans subs in the Atlantic before the DOW, don't you ?

The precise date of the DOW is but a mere technicality for those already engaged in the battle. You may hang on to it as something important but it's a mere footnote in history.

If I punch you in the nose, are you going to wait for a declaration that I don't like you before acting ?

Hi Chutzpah,

Fantasies are things that didn't happen, such as Roosevelt bringing the US into the war in 1942. History is things that did happen, like Pearl Harbour. I'd prefer to deal in the facts rather than fantasies, interesting diversions though they may well be.

Yup. I did know that US escorts attacked U-boats in the Atlantic before the declaration of war. I also know that one US escort was sunk by a U-boat during this time.

Did you know that the US merchant ship Robin Moor was seized by the Deutschland on 9 October 1939?

Did you know that the US merchant ship City of Rayville was sunk by German mine on 9 November 1940?

Did you know that the US merchant ship Charles Pratt was sunk by a U-boat on 21 December 1940?

How many assaults on U-boats by US escorts had there been by the end of 1940?

Would you care to list the ever rising number of US merchant ships sunk as 1941 progressed?

Did you know that at least 243 US merchant seamen had been killed by the time of Pearl Harbour? How many German sailors had been killed by the US Navy by then?

The precise date of a declaration of war may well on occasion be a technicality for those already engaged in battle. However, I very much doubt it was a technicality as far as the US was concerned in December 1941! Are you really suggesting that there was no substantive difference in the US's position between the day before Pearl Harbour and the day after Germany's declaration of war? The entire terms of reference of the US's "involvement" in WWII changed radically in these few days.

Cheers,

Sid.

P.S. I don't think your analogy of a play-ground punch up is really appropriate here, do you?

Hi Imp,

Please see my last post to Chutzpah.

Cheers,

Sid.

Oh yes, you bet I do.

Jesus Christ Sid. How do you manage to post so much and still avoid answering simple questions. You're steering and dodging real hard here, like a true hair splitting lawayer.

I will try to present it in yet a simpler manner, for the benefit of people not used to your punitive spinning.

Do you consider a voluntary attack on foreign miltary units as an act of war ?

Yes / No

Do you consider that Vietnam was a war (considering there was no DOW)

Yes / No

I expect two extremely short answers (not 182 questions). C'mon, a little focus !
We are not making progress...

Cheers !

This post has been edited by Chutzpah on June 09, 2006 03:00 pm

Hi Chutzpah,

Nice try, but a quick look at our last couple of posts will soon reveal which of us has left questions unanswered - and it isn't me!

I will, of course answer your last two questions, as I usually do. However, you cannot reasonably expect to prescribe my answers. Not everything is directly answerable by yes or no without clarification. For example:

Is the US/British/French flag yellow or green? Yes/No?

or,

Have you stopped beating your wife? Yes/No?

Anyway, in order to accomodate you as far as possible, I will abbreviate my answers as much as possible:

1) Not necessarily.

2) Yes.

You will, I hope, note that I never said that a declaration of war was the only way a war may open. That is your fixation, not mine.

Now, will you be answering any of the seven (!) questions you left unanswered from my last post to you?

Cheers,

A very focused and extremely progressive Sid, as requested.

Sid, I'm not going to answer your heap of questions because, er .. just because you feel like it.

C'mon. Be clear. What's your point with them ? What would the answers demonstrate ? There is no point tasking people with turning their library upside down, digging up hard data for no visible purpose. If there is something you really don't know I will gladly help you but be reasonable. No half page list of military quiz, I have a life you know.

Of course I suspect you perfectly know the answer to those questions and you just try to play with my feet.

By the way. What makes Vietnam a war ?

(You can answer without making library searches - I'm so kind with you).

I never said that you said it , Sid. And its not my fixation Sid.
You made a honnest mistake.

[sarcasm mode off]


Cheers ! I love you Sid !

This post has been edited by Chutzpah on June 10, 2006 02:07 pm

Well, since Sid will disagree with whatever I say, I'll bring some "authoritative" opinions:

These foreign aid activities culminated in the Lend-Lease Act of March 1941 that swept away the pretense of American neutrality by openly avowing the intention of the United States to become an “arsenal of democracy” against aggression. Prewar foreign aid was largely a self-defense measure; its fundamental purpose was to help contain the military might of the Axis powers until the United States could complete its own protective mobilization.
Thus by early 1941 the focus of American policy had shifted from hemispheric defense to limited participation in the war.

http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/books/AMH-V2/AM...hapter2.htm#b12

So, Sid. Was the US involved in the war prior to Pearl Harbour, yes or no?

We have broken with our past. We have thrown away our New World, our splendid isolation, our geographical advantage of three to one against all aggressors, our separate political religion. There is no longer a New World, nor an Old World, but now one world in which the American people have been cast for a part they will have to learn as they go along.

There is no longer a Monroe Doctrine. In place of it there is an American Internationalism. We do not yet know what this means.

From now on for us there is no foreign war. Any war anywhere in the world is our war, provided only there is an aggressor to be destroyed, a democracy to be saved or an area of freedom to be defended.

Garet Garrett, March 29 1941, Saturday Evening Post

Prophetic words.

I'm a little surprised at how Eurocentric (and nitpicky) this discussion has been. Should I be?

Re America's entrance into WWII; I'm sure you are aware of the the role of oil; Japan adapted an expansionist policy in the S.Pacific in an attempt to secure that vital resource. (sound familiar?)

FDR knew this of course. At the same time, the U.S. was at least equally involved with aid to China as it was with the U.K and Russia. In 1941 the U.S. embargoed oil to Japan.

There is a school of thought that holds FDR was pressuring the Japanese as well as the Nazis to make a move, as he needed cover from the large isolationist sentiment which prevailed ( "America first" movement....also sound familiar?)

According to this scenario, The miitarist Japanese obliged FDR, in rather spectacular fashion......... and the rest is history. I'm sure you are aware of all this.

cheers.