May 31, 1944 W.Batz claims

All :

I need some expert opinion on this, since the records of W.Batz don't
match the losses of the opponent .

Batz alone is claiming on May 31, 1944 15 airplanes as shot down.
According my info collected from the Russian archives and
various books the Soviets lost on that day 23 airplanes of mixed
types such as LAGG, YAK mainly P-39's and IL-2.

But I would round up the Soviet figures to 30 and I still don't come
up with the figures claimed by Batz, which again seems to be an
example of a WWII exageration of the Germans.

On 31st ,many German pilots claimed in total as much as 68
Soviet planes ,but frankly I believe that not even the half
would be correct. Batz figures are claimed in full and not
in group.

An other example is Erich Hartmann claims in Rumania ....60%
of the Rumanian claims against the 15th AF and VVS dont carry
aircraft types neither specific dates....and they may have been
too a product of the same war propaganda......

This post has been edited by yugit on November 03, 2011 08:54 pm

What source do you base your statement on? I hope not 'The Blond Knight of Germany'...

Gen. Dénes

Denes

The book I am reffering to is " Holt Hartmann von Himmel "

Best Regards
Al

It's the same book, translated in German.
I suggest you not to use it as reference.

Gen. Dénes

Al, first of all: The situation which prevailed during this (aerial) battles is typical for unintentional overclaiming: Quite large numbers of planes concentrated in a very small area. In such situations, overclaiming of 100% too much is nothing special.

Apart from that, at least some of the claims of Batz really seem quite high:
Mission "2": four P-39 within 16 minutes, two of them in one minute at 3.000 and then 2.000 meters... how would one be "100% sure" that these two were real kills? Must have been explosion / breaking of huge parts at the first kill...
Mission "3": A Sturmovik and a La-5 in one minute, and the another IL-2.
Mission "4": Three IL-2 - this was quite difficult if the Me-109 doesn't carry gunpods, which afaik were at least disliked since 1943 already...

On the other hand, 205.IAD alone lost nine P-39 with pilots dead/wounded or HTS, and 9.GIAD lost lost minimum seven dead pilots (incl. planes), maybe plus the same amount of planes with pilots surviving? 304.IAD seems to not have seen action. Then we would have 23 Cobras - against >40 German claims .

At least we can be sure that there was a lot of deadly fighting including overclaiming (on boths sides).

Don't forget the Rumanian fighter claims, too, plus flak.

Gen. Dénes

Denes / Yogi

The Soviet aces claimed on May 31st '44 37 fighters down,strangely almost all
were Germans. Most of their favourite hunt during Iasi Kishinew
campaigns would remain the JU-87's.

The Soviets lost 11 P-39 and 9 IL-2 the rest is a mixture of LAGG's
YAK's and 1 A-20.

Frankly, I think all claims led by Germans were exagerated....they
were all hungry for medals and "Ehre Pokals " and the others for
gold stars and Lenin orders. One need to remember that also then
these medals were worth lots of money and privileges.

In addition to 17 ML.Lt, 4 Lt., 2 Sgt. pilots , various enlisted
gunners and other unknown lost pilots also Major V.V.Sokolov
deputy Sqd.Cd. of 438 GvIAP (205 IAD ) would be lost near Iasi on that
day by the Soviets.

Either way I would recommend a book called "Red Star P-39" by
Marinskiy(english ), all Pokrishkin and Kojedub books, Arhipenko ,Evstigneev
Stroykov and Sereda memoirs..regretfully the last only for those who speak
Russian.

Al

This post has been edited by yugit on November 04, 2011 09:18 pm

Denes

I am not sure if I told you or Yogi in the past, but
I personally knew Hartmann during his life time,
He lived just 3 hrs drive from my location.
I have some of his personal memoires, various
other stuff he published during his post war
Luftwaffe time and during his staying in the
US. His aerials are not 100 % accurate and
none can prove today his claims nor any other
claims from WWII of any given pilot. The mentioned
book was not my single reference material.

BR
Al

This post has been edited by yugit on November 04, 2011 09:11 pm

How do you arrive at the figure "11"?
My informations say that on 31.5., the loviet 4.IAK lost nine P-39 from 205.IAD plus seven dead pilots from 9.GIAD (means minimum 9 more P-39). This is 16, not 11... ?
(205.IAD from that well-known russian article, 9.GIAD from OBD-memorial)

Denes

I've got some classical examples of WWII aces scores
inconsitancies. which I am posting herewith just as
a rough reference.

At page 65 "Barbarossa " of Bergstroem he is
citing Pokrishkin along with Diatchenko as those
who shot down Heydrich on July 22,41. This
story is partially repeated by some Russian
Internet sites...though the official roaster of
Pokrishkim himself not showing any ME-109
brought down on the above date.

At the same time the AA divisions possibly
belonging the 18th Army which were spread
out around Tiraspol and Balti, claimed
between other also that ME-109.....additionally
Pokrishkin and his wingman took off from Kotovsk.

An other curious story is this of the pilot
of the JG77 namely Major W.Schellmann
which was claimed according Russian sources
by Atrashkevitch of 55IAP then an other source citing
a biplane pilot of 126 IAP etc.....so you tell me
whom to believe at last.

PS:

By the way from what I red other than Internet,
he was not executed just like that by NKVD...it
seems he made an escape attempt....
execution which of course wasnt deserved by a pilot
but those who condemn the execution, should
remember the terrible high figures of Allied pilots
executed by the Germans.....other than " The Great
Escape "story...such as the 36 Soviet pilots who tried
to escpae from Dachau and were executed on spot
with no trial .

Al

BR
Al

This post has been edited by yugit on November 05, 2011 10:04 pm

Yogi

This is what I have , is not simple to scroll through OBD. Tell me
whats missing on 5.31.44 on the P-39 roaster:

SANDALINOV
SOKOLOV DEPUTY SQ CO
SCHKONDIN
BRASHEV
VOLKOV
KAMENSKI
KARPOV
CHISTOV
SCHVETZOV
YAZOV
GROMOV

Al

PS : pse indicate the missing names in full, prefferably Russian ( copy /paste)

This post has been edited by yugit on November 05, 2011 10:02 pm

Returning to the original topic, here are Batz's 15 claims for 31 May 1944:

Batz Wilhelm Hptm. 1944.05.31. Stab III. JG 52 Il-2mH. 78 814: 500m 07.13
Batz Wilhelm Hptm. 1944.05.31. Stab III. JG 52 Il-2mH. 78 821: 500m 07.05
Batz Wilhelm Hptm. 1944.05.31. Stab III. JG 52 LaGG 78 566: 5000m 16.45
Batz Wilhelm Hptm. 1944.05.31. Stab III. JG 52 Il-2mH. 78 814: 800m 17.05
Batz Wilhelm Hptm. 1944.05.31. Stab III. JG 52 Il-2mH. 78 813: 500m 17.08
Batz Wilhelm Hptm. 1944.05.31. Stab III. JG 52 LaGG 78 683: 300m 06.50
Batz Wilhelm Hptm. 1944.05.31. Stab III. JG 52 LaGG 78 678: 2000m 16.30
Batz Wilhelm Hptm. 1944.05.31. Stab III. JG 52 LaGG 78 673: 3000m 11.39
Batz Wilhelm Hptm. 1944.05.31. Stab III. JG 52 Airacobra 78 359: 3000m 19.14
Batz Wilhelm Hptm. 1944.05.31. Stab III. JG 52 Airacobra 78 654: 3500m 11.33
Batz Wilhelm Hptm. 1944.05.31. Stab III. JG 52 Airacobra 78 672: 2000m 11.24
Batz Wilhelm Hptm. 1944.05.31. Stab III. JG 52 Airacobra 78 678: 3000m 11.20
Batz Wilhelm Hptm. 1944.05.31. Stab III. JG 52 Airacobra 78 679: 2500m 11.17
Batz Wilhelm Hptm. 1944.05.31. Stab III. JG 52 Il-2mH. 78 679: 500m 06.57
Batz Wilhelm Hptm. 1944.05.31. Stab III. JG 52 Il-2mH. 78 823: 800m 07.15

Gen. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on November 06, 2011 04:39 pm

And here are Hartmann's claims for the same day:

Hartmann Erich Ltn. 1944.05.31. 9. JG 52 Airacobra 78 733: 3500m 18.13
Hartmann Erich Ltn. 1944.05.31. 9. JG 52 Airacobra 78 647: 4000m 18.05
Hartmann Erich Ltn. 1944.05.31. 9. JG 52 Airacobra 78 614: 5000m 18.08

Gen. Dénes

Denes

In the early 30's a cartoonist designed the Superman to
divert the American minds from the financial depression
of that time and motivate younger minds towards progress
and ingenuity...which in a way worked out.

If Batz brought down 15 airplanes in one day , then
he's could have well been the next Hollywood character
of Superman and his name should have been Oberst
Rudel and candidate for golden Oak Leaves with diamonds
and swords...for wipping out an entire squadron. Other
than that, I belive that this was a result of miscalculation
or someone who wanted to see him promoted...or just
the usual war propaganda of the Germans.

Al

This post has been edited by yugit on November 06, 2011 08:13 pm

Alex,
Are you here to try to investigate the claims of Batz and match them with possible Soviet losses, or for anti-German statements? Let me know because if it's the latter, I really have no time to waste for such things.

Gen. Dénes