Rejecting the Soviet Ultimatum in 1940, Implications

Transylvania was a de facto part of Romania, it was not just a thought.

Hungary and the powers you mentioned did not do a barter because barter means exchange between items that are owned by both parties prior to the deal. And like I said, Hungary had neither Northern nor Southern Transylvania, Romania had it all. There was no barter.

Guaranteeing territorial integrity in exchange for not resisting a move against your own territorial integrity is laughable at best.

Dragos, I agree with most you've written. However, let me point out that Hitler (and Mussolini) did not take Hungary's (or Rumania's) side. He (they) had only his (their) own interests in sight.

Gen. Dénes

I expressed my opinion that Germany took Hungary's side because it was Hungary that raised the settlement of this issue in one way or another, and Hitler could simply have forced Hungary into laying down her claims (or stay neutral and let Hungary "barter" with Soviet Union ) . However, this was an opportunity to bring Romania under Germany sphere of influence, and Hitler could not find a more favorable moment.

And Mussolini could not have other opinion than Hitler on this issue

This post has been edited by dragos on March 15, 2008 10:37 pm

No it's not. Especially if your territorial integrity was at stake between Soviet Union and Germany.

No. It was actually both Rumania and Hungary who raised the issue of an arbitration with Berlin and Rome in regards of Transylvania.

Gen. Dénes

That was about to change through the means of war. In August 1940, Rumania faced the real risk of losing Transylvania for good in an imminent war. That's why it was a 'barter', namely keep the bigger half and gain the sought-after guarantees of one of those times' 'superpowers' in exchange of letting the other half go.

Gen. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on March 15, 2008 10:47 pm

No. It was actually both Rumania and Hungary who raised the issue of an arbitration with Berlin and Rome in regards of Transylvania.

Gen. Dénes

Yes, after failed negotiations between the two parts, and started by who?

Initially by Hungary, of course. However, the request for arbitration, which actually settled the contentious issue (for a while), actually came from both Rumania and Hungary. This is what eventually matters.

Anyhow, this is now off-topic, and we are loosing sight of the original issue, namely the notion of the 'barter' in 1940.

Gen. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on March 15, 2008 10:54 pm

Not quite off-topic, because the Soviet ultimatum is linked with the so called Vienna Diktat or Arbitration.

However, being sarcastic, it proved that appealing to Hitler was not a very inspired move from Hungary

It is interesting to know if there was any secret meetings or negotiations between Hungary and Soviet Union prior to appealing to the arbitration from Hitler.

It was linked only indirectly, namely when seeing the USSR getting hold of a contested territory of Rumania, the Hungarians thought it's the proper time to enforce their claim, too. For this, they were ready to ultimately go to war, if necessary. But Hitler stopped them, and suggested both parties direct negotiations instead.

As for your sarcastic point, as I've said, it wasn't Hungary who appealed to Hitler. Eventually, Hitler was who intervened to avert war in his 'backyard', and after the failed direct negotiations it was both Rumania and Hungary who appealed to the Führer (and the Duce).

As far as I know, in 1940 there were no secret negotiations between Budapest and Moscow regarding the issue of Transylvania. Hungary was too small of a 'pie' for Stalin, and would have nothing to offer to him anyways.

Gen. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on March 15, 2008 11:17 pm

I asked this because I have read in a Military History magazine that Soviet Union declared that it was ready to intervene in case of a conflict between Romania and Hungary. At stake was not the Hungarian territory, of course, but the Romanian one, and it's not improbable that Red Army was eager to assist the Hungarian Army struggle in the west. It could have been a favorable moment for Stalin to pick up spoils of war and push its sphere of influence westwards.

Trading territorial integrity in exchange for guarantee for your territorial integrity (issued by the same guy that forces you not to resist a violation of it) is pure and simple silly.

With the case of Czechoslovakia still fresh, our massacred "territorial integrity" was not at all safe-kept in Hitler's desk. He could have massacred again if he so wanted.

And he did precisely so a week later on September 7 when we ended up ceding Cadrilater too! So much for trusting Hitler.

Am I wrong in saying that from among the former status-quo powers, Czechoslovakia and Romania were the only ones that succombed to the revisionist powers without a fight?

Austria did not resist to the 'Anschluss' either.

Gen. Dénes

Indeed, a war was set to sort the matter. But luckily the politicians wet their pants and made the decent decision of giving up. Then they probably went back for a nap and 'revista presei' in Parliament. I doubt most of them were of a different breed back then.

Guarantees from Hitler, the man well known for his "international treaties are mere pieces of paper" attitude? They weren't worth a dime.

Romania's case was not alike Czechoslovakian one. In the case of Czechoslovakia, a bordering territory at the Reich's border, supported by signifiant internal dissociation between Slovaks and Czech, it was a free move from Hitler at the table of negociations with UK and France.

Yes, Lithuania, Latvia, Poland against Soviet Union (no declaration of war, Poland did not have anything to put up agains the Soviets, a likely scenario as was Romania involved in a war agains Hungary in 1940)

You forgot the main objective of annexation of the Czech lands: the sizeable ethnic German population (over 3 millions) living in the so-called Sudetenland, which had become Czechoslovakian citizens virtually overnight, in 1919, without their opinion having first been asked. A situation pretty much like of the ethnic Hungarians and Germans from Transylvania.

Gen. Dénes