90% of Romanian Jews killed during WW2?, according to some sources

Victor, he said "pigheaded stupidity". In my book that is an insult. Now if in your opinion that is not an insult and you chose to ignore the report..... it's very informative, good to know what one can say around here.

Sorry, what? I did read the book.

But you dont want reason. you want to point out that Johnson doesnt blame the romanians, he only says Hitler exterminated 750,000 jews in Romania. It's all so quiet and nice. Case closed. No debate, no implications of his claim, no analysis. Let's just hang on to eye-sight and blame it on Imperialist. It's so easy.
I have no problem admitting I am wrong, when being wrong is beyond any doubt. On this issue you guys are right when looking at Johnson's statement at face value (Hitler exterminated 750k jews in Romania. End of quote. nice and clear.), but I am right when pointing out the implications of his statement.

I see. So I dont have facts, and even if I had them, they would be superfluous. Nice way of dismissing "reason" outright. Are these facts or interpretations:

Hi Sid,

Thank you for spending your time to answer. I made bold the last sentence from what I quote because it is much worse than being "particularly serious". It creates a very bad image regarding Romania and the Romanian nation. Which it would be accepted if it would be deserved, but in this particular case, it is also not true (as you are trying to explain, by the way).

This post has been edited by Florin on November 18, 2006 08:36 pm

Hi Florin,

the bottomline is that I have an opinion on the way J's statements can be interpreted, and Sid a different opinion. This doesnt give him the right to ask for me to be banned, label my opinion "pigheaded stupidity", or demand that I bow down and embrace his point of view. We already expressed our points of view and arguments pages ago. The discussion continues because Sid is not satisfied with expressing his p.o.v., he wants me to renounce mine and "convert" to his, and he makes ecery bullying effort to achieve that. Now I wont do that and I expected the moderators to put some limits to his attitude, that's all.

As for Romania's image I think it is more likely to be hurt by J's book circulating with its erroneous figure of 750k than by me pointing out the effects and implications of his statement. And I also said even if Victor and Sid were to concede that I hava a fair point in regard to the implications of J's claims, that would in no way damage Romania, since J's figure is wrong, and I already admitted that.

that's the way I view the current situation on this thread

take care

Hi Imp,

This is neither about opinion nor interpretation.

It is simply the case that you are 100% wrong on arguably the most sensitive matter in modern Romanian history. Romanians did not exterminate 90% of their Jews and no Western authors claim that they did. Only you claim that they do.

I don't want you to convert to my point of view. I want you to tell the TRUTH.

In view of the fact that you obviously have some problem identifying the truth I will help you a little.

What is the truth?

The truth is that no Western authors claim that Romanians exterminated 90% of their Jews.

For you to pretend otherwise is a simple lie.

And, I would suggest that if you are prepared to repeatedly distort the truth so blatantly on such an important subject that affects the credibility of history generally, Romanian history in particular and this forum specifically you should be banned.

On this subject you are a serial liar. No more serious charge can be made on a historical forum. You know you are telling an untruth. You know it damages the study of history, Romania and this forum and yet you still cannot bring yourself to tell the simple truth that no Western authors claim that Romanians exterminated 90% of their Jews.

See? It's not that difficult. I have told the same truth three times in this single post. Go on. Give it a go. The truth can't hurt.

Cheers,

Sid.

P.S. Please give us another laugh. Put up the famous Johnson quote again where Hitler, now apparently a Romanian according to you, is held responsible for the deaths of 750,000 Jews in Romania! In your last post you were strangely reluctant to show Florin what Johnson really says on the subject.......

I find it weird that a person that claims to be an intellectual is so persistent in calling another member to be banned because he holds a different view on the interpretation of a statement. Given the fact that you are also given a free hand in insulting me without receiving the sleightest of warnings, I see foul play. I also find it weird that you ask for me to be banned, but when I defend my position you accuse me that I have ego issues. Interesting, so you go after my existence on this forum and you want me to sit idle and let you spew your demands without opposition.

As for the rest of your message you did nothing but repeat your arguments and emphatically or should I say loudly proclaimed them TRUTH. Impressive.

p.s. Maybe you should review the Origins of the Romanian Language thread. there, not only were you adamant in maintaining your opinion, but you never said you're sorry or admit you were wrong. Maybe I should ask for you to be banned.

Hi Imp,

Naughty, naughty. When have I ever claimed to be an intellectual? Untruth No.1.

Tsk, Tsk. I haven't asked for you to be banned because your interpretation differs from mine. I think you should be banned for inventing untruths and refusing to withdraw them. Untruth No.2.

I rather think that the reason why I haven't been warned for giving you a hard time here is that I am stating a rather obvious, demonstrable and valuable truth in this case.

Nope. I don't want to see you or anyone else banned, but there are bigger issues here than what I may or may not want. You are blatantly trying to falsify the historical record by making damaging claims that are not simply untrue, but which you know to be untrue and/or cannot substantiate. You are undermining the credibility of Feldgrau, general standards of historical research and debate and Romania's national reputation. For the sake of these wider issues I do think you should be banned if you won't retract your false suggestions.

However, you have the same simple way out now as you have always had. Tell the truth. The truth is simply this: There are no Western authors who claim that Romanians exterminated 90% of their Jews.

I am more than happy to withdraw any suggestion you should be banned if you would simply confirm that you know of no Western authors who claim that Romanians exterminated 90% of their Jews.

Alternatively, I would be more than happy to withdraw any suggestion you should be banned if you could come up with a couple of Western authors who do claim that Romanians exterminated 90% of their Jews.

What is not acceptable is for you to make this damaging claim in the absence of any supporting evidence and then refuse to withdraw it.

Cheers,

Sid.

This erroneous claim of yours can easily be disproved by reposting one of my many messages here in which I provide arguments for my claims. You ignore these arguments, but constantly attack me, demand my banning and do all other weird stuff.

Ok, let's continue:

What is Feldgrau and what does it have to do with this?
I am damaging Romania's national reputation? Wow, lock me up and throw away the key. No wait, shoot me. I think you go way over-board with these accusations. I already pointed out there is no damage to Romanian reputation. You go real low in your ambition to ban me. Does it itch that bad?

take care

I did not call for you to be warned for giving me "hard time". I also dont ask you to be banned because I disagree with your opinions. I asked you to be warned for calling my opinions "pigheaded stupidity". From what I know the moderators are here to keep the discussions civil, not to decide matters of true or false and allow insults from the ones they consider right on an issue.

In this case , you probably should be banned too for the truths in the "origin of the Romanian language" thread,is it? You did not demonstarte anything (new) and you still believe that you hold the truth by its legs. So,what gives?
Honestly, I thought (and actually I still believe that) that everyone here express their "truth",right? What's wrong with that? I mean since when somebody has to be banned for its opinions expressed in a civilized manner. This is just getting ridiculous.

Hi Imp,

Let's look at that again, shall we, using your own words:

"1) Johnson claims 750,000 Jews were killed in Romania.

2) He....... blames Hitler for this Holocaust".

I think that puts Johnson firmly off the list of Western authors you claim state that Romanians exterminated 90% of their Jews, don't you? And you offer no other sources except Carp, who contradicts you directly.

The fact is that you are inventing an entirely fictitious stance by entirely fictitious "Western authors". This may have been an honest mistake initially, but it has now turned into a dishonest lie to maintain it without any evidence whatsoever.

And is not perpetuating a dishonest lie in public long after it has been exposed by your own words a prime example of "pigheaded stupidity"?

If you want to undermine the proposition that you are engaged in pigheaded stupidity, just tell the TRUTH that you know of no Western authors who claim Romanians exterminated 90% of their Jews or produce some actual evidence that they (plural, remember) do. I would then be delighted to withdraw any suggestion
that you are engaged in pigheaded stupidity or telling lies because they would no longer be true.

It's entirely up to you, as it has always been.

Cheers,

Sid.

Hi Zayets,

Yup. Everyone is entitled to express their own opinion. However, every opinion cannot be equally valid. Therefore not all are the "Truth".

If this was simply Imp's private blog, it wouldn't matter what he posted. But it is not. This claims to be an independent Romanian military historical website. This means it maintains certain basic standards of evidence.

I would suggest that Imp is willfully ignoring all reasonable standards of evidence when he maintains that some Western authors claim that Romanians exterminated 90% of their Jews. Not only is this figure statistically very exaggerated, as Imp now admits, but there are no Western authors who claim this, which he will not yet admit.

This second matters a great deal, because he is trying to pass off his own initially honest and not very influential mistake as the opinion of a more respectable body of Western authors. This is dishonest. There are no such authors. After six pages of this he is still reliant on his two original sources - Carp, who contradicts him directly by giving much lower figures, and Johnson, who blames Hitler (see my last post or, indeed, any by Imp himself!).

There can hardly be a more sensitive subject in modern Romanian history. You may be content to see the historical record distorted but I am not. Romanians did not exterminate 90% of their Jews and no Western authors state that they did. This is a pure invention by Imp.

This lie has to be stopped at source. If it is not it may become another internet "fact" that gains respectability by repetition. "I seem to remember a Romanian historical website where it was claimed that Romanians exterminated 90% of their Jews" soon becomes abbreviated through a process akin to Chinese whispers to "A Romanian historical website states that Romanians exterminated 90% of their Jews" and finally to "Romanians exterminated 90% of their Jews". Already the subtitle of this very thread - "according to some sources" - contains this lie.

If you value this forum's reputation for maintaining standards of evidence, and/or value maintaining the accuracy of the historical record generally and/or value Romania's national reputation, I hope you will urge Imp to withdraw the proposition that some Western authors claim that Romanians exterminated 90% of their Jews. Ff he does so, all question of banning, pigheaded stupidity and lies disappears.

Within its pre-1918 borders, Romania contained the largest Jewish population inside Axis Europe to survive WWII largely intact. This important redeeming fact in a sorry story will be lost if the proposition that some Western authors claim Romanians exterminated 90% of their Jews gains currency.

I hope you now see why I am making a particular issue of this. It is important on several different levels.

Cheers,

Sid.

Sid, this isnt the first time you bring someone to exasperation by forcing them to repeat again and again their arguments, because you never agreed to disagree:

http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?sh...indpost&p=51480

Eventually you got Chutzpah banned because he snapped and said:

http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?sh...indpost&p=51441

Apparently the mods were more sensitive when you were the taget of personal remarks:

http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?sh...indpost&p=51462

http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?sh...indpost&p=51494

Now on this thread the mods turn a blind eye to your personal remarks and attitude. Not only that, but they seem to agree with it, taking into consideration Victor's last post here. Your audacity has grown so much that you demand then suggest for me to be banned. Apparently I also have to adopt your point of view in order to undermine your previous insult!

With this in mind, I hereby (to use your very official language) withdraw from this thread. I leave you do demand my assassination, imprisonment and whatever you like. I also no longer have a problem if you consider me pigheadedly stupid. My amazement was only that you were allowed to insult another member without even drawing a warning.

take care

This post has been edited by Imperialist on November 28, 2006 07:16 pm

I am actually growing tired of this "victim routine". I already replied you regarding what you perceived as an insult and I am not going to repeat myself. You obviously did not get it.

Neither Dragos, not I, are moderators, but administrators. I have have also grown tired explaining the difference. You know very well why Chandernagore was banned and it wasn't just because he attacked Sid. You are trying to draw away attention from the original discussion and your incapability to admit you were wrong. Frankly I don't like this kind of "diversionary tactics".

And probably the thing I am most tired of saying is that if you don't like it here, just go.

You replied saying "pigheaded" is not an insult. However, Sid did not say I am pigheaded, he said something about my pigheaded stupidity http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?sh...indpost&p=56141
Which is a totally different thing, and an insult.

Now you say you are tired of my "victim routine". I wouldnt have had no victim routine if you would have taken notice of my non-public use of the "report" feature on that specific post. You chose to ignore it, and hence I had to complain about that insult publicly.

I am not trying to draw away the attention from the discussion. Because there is no longer a discussion going on. I presented my arguments, now it's a Sid monologue.

Where on this thread did I say I dont like it here? You mean if I dont like your moderating style, just go. OK, good to know this. I will keep it in mind.

take care

This post has been edited by Imperialist on November 28, 2006 08:21 pm

Hi Imp,

I know of no Western authors who claim that Romanians exterminated 90% of their Jews.

You have produced no Western authors who claim that Romanians exterminated 90% of their Jews.

Nobody else has produced any Western authors who claim that Romanians exterminated 90% of their Jews.

This all being so, why not just simply withdraw the damaging suggestion that there are such Western authors who claim Romanians exterminated 90% of their Jews?

Surely the truth should come first, especially in such a highly sensitive subject area with implications for the credibility of this as a historical forum, the study of history on an evidential basis and Romania's national reputation?

Cheers,

Sid.