Well made film, When you have gun control....

Hallo Denes,
because I don't see you as being a naive, I am sure you understand what I wanted to say : an army as the romanian, hungarian or bulgarian f.i. can not serve a country or a leader, but the nation who raise it! At least so was normal to be in the XX century, in Europe's small countries. In this logic of things my question isn't pointless, but fully motivated! A national army as the romanian was not only defend its territory but citizens also, and the example of the revolution of October 1956 in Hungary or December 1989 in Romania should be obvious! The army should be with her people not with the sometimes irresponsible leaders! Did the Hungarian army back in 1956 fraternized with the Soviet Troops and stayed with the traitors leaders (the part of them who called the Soviets) or fought alongside the people of Budapest?

Romanian soldiers executed orders, and, they were sure they will return, because the war was iminent. I read and discussed with many veterans, all said the same. They were sure they'll come back. Another point is that Hungarian army respected advance graphics estabilished, and Romania and Hungarian army do not interfere (in Bassarabia and Bukovina, Soviets devansed Romanians, provoked them and were many incidents). Another point, to Romanians soldiers who were from nothern Transylvania were granted permissions to go to their homes.
Anyway, were some incidents, one at Hidiseul de Jos (Bihor county), where shots occured. Incidents were on Eastern front, at leat at one occasion, when Romanian and Hungarian troops shouted one another when they exchanged positions.

No need to laugh. The Saxons from Transylvania did dream not of another Sudetenland (which was physically impossible, being far from Germany), but an autonomy, so they could handle their owen issues without much interference from the capital (be it either Budapest or Bucharest).

Here, Saxons from a Northern Transylvanian village greet the entering Honvéd cyclists with the so-called 'German salute' (which had not much to do with the Nazi Party, being rather a fashinable form of salute among German ethnics).
Photo taken by a Hungarian soldier of the cyclist unit in early September 1940.


[Photo: Fortepan]

Gen. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on February 13, 2011 10:02 pm

Wasn't it rather/also "the Roman salute"?

It also was the official salute adopted by the Romanian FRN/PN (Frontul Renaşterii Naţionale/Partidul Naţiunii - National Renaissance Front - The Nation's Party) from 1938 until September 1940.

Agarici, you're right in both assumptions. Although - on what I've seen on photos - there was a difference between the angles how high the straight arm was lifted (if it means anything at all).

Here is another photo of the same series, this time taken in a Hungarian village in Northern Transylvania (not the Seklerland, based on the national costumes):


[Photo: Fortepan]

Notice the plate with the word: Honvédség attached to the staff car's front bumper.

Gen. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on February 14, 2011 08:33 am

Interesting photos, Denes! The only ones in colors from September 1940 in NV Transylvania (and among the few with the Hungarian Royal army) I’ve seen.

Do you have more?

The costumes could be also hungarian.

I would think that the Sachsen would rather not see the hungarians as liberators.

In 1848 they fought beside Avram Iancu against the hungarians (well, my presumption is that predominantly they wanted to be ruled by an emperor that could speak proper german ) . The hungarians comited some asasinations during these events.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephan_Ludwig_Roth

In 1872 they were taking actions to create an autonomous saxon region, but in 1876 the Budapest government disolved the Saxon Universität and started a magyarisation policy. So, in 1918 they voted for the union with Romania (the fact that the romanian King was a Hohenzollern might have helped).

This is one of the major problems with such discussion forums.
Even when one particular detail is clearly explained and even illustrated with a photo, which acts as a proof, someone still casts doubt, just for the sake of further stirring controversy (Gica contra).

These villagers are Transylvanian Saxons. Their popular customes are Saxon. They do greet the Hungarian soldiers with the 'German salute' - as clearly explained (Hungarians did not use that form of salute).

The rest of what you have written about the Saxons from Transylvania and their attitude against the HUngarians is also either not true, or only partially true. But this is off topic here.

Gen. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on February 16, 2011 06:26 am

concerning the more or less divided loyalties of the saxons or danube swabians during the '48 revolution, there is a proper thread in the "ancient and medieval" subforum to discuss this.

My mother was a transylvanian Saxon from the Mediasch region. The costumes (die Tracht) are different from what I know, women`s headgears especially. But of course there were regional variations, even from village to village. The combination white shirt black vest is common in all Transylvania as you can see by comparing the two photos. If you compare the hungarian girl in foreground with the first saxon woman from the left (the one by the man in black suit) you can see that even the design of the vest (the decorations) are similar.

That is why I told the costumes could be also hungarians or saxon, it is dificult to discern from the picture.
Dénes, can you please tell if you have informations about the name of the village?

Hallo,
Some weeks ago I had an interesting talk with a neighbor, 81 years old, Carol Z. (have no permission to say his family name) whose father joined the Waffen SS in late 1942 (so he said) in the CAVALRY SS DIVISION (probably the 8th SS Division called later Florian Geyer) on the eastern front and later in the Balkans. His family lived at that time in Arad (like he today), so even after 1940 in Romania (not in hungarian occupied territory like many saxons from Central Transylvania). He said that his father told him after the war (he survived the war, but with invalidity) that the worst moment was in autumn 1944 when he had to fight against the Romanian Army. He said to the family that a greater shame than this has never lived his entire life (shame to fight against the Romanians who were so good to him and his family) even if he was only a driver and mechanical maintenance sergeant on the Sturmgeschütz (my guess since Mr Carol said that his father work with the tanks of this division but as I know the division never had tanks only StuG-s). I don't exclude the possibility that Mr. Carol is trying to improve the image of his father, although his father was never persecuted by communists after 1945 (when he returned home), but I believe that he was ashamed to fight against the Romanians with his family living in Arad (so in Romania). He told that his German comrades from Hungary and Transylvania never really sympathize the Hungarians, unlike the Germans from the Reich who appreciate them very much, especially before march 1944.

I think that only one photo of saxons from Transylvania greeting the hungarian army is not relevant to present the entire saxon population as seeing the hungarians as liberators. It is the same generalisation as let's say, for example, that in one photo a romanian soldier from ww2 was acompanied by a pet. Would be in this example the logical conclusion that romanian soldiers in ww2 were adopting pets?

I agree. However, even in worst case the Saxons were indifferent, but not hostile, towards the new administration.

As for how Transylvanian Saxons regarded the Transylvanian Hungarians, that would also differ, I assume, from region to region, from village to village. I don't know how much the old Saxon person you've interviewed told you, a Rumanian, the entire story, and how much he hid, or 'enflowered'.

What I can tell you is that my mother was born in a village called Teke (Teaca in Rumanian, Tekendorf in German), with mixed population - back then mainly Saxons, as well as Hungarians and Rumanians (nowadays the Saxons, the predominant ethnic group in the village, have practically vanished, they being replaced by Rumanians).

She has only nice words to say about the Saxons and vice versa. We were often invited to two particular Saxon villager families, even in West-Germany after they've emigrated there in the early 1980s. Same with another Saxon family from Sibiu (Szeben/Hermannstadt), who even recently told my mother to visit them in Germany - all expenses paid.

Dead-cat may have a more detailed input here.

Gen. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on February 16, 2011 07:17 pm

In 1848 also the saxons were not so anti-hungarian as their feelings developed later in the events. Even after saxons saw their requirements not being fulfilled by the revolutionary hungarian government, they didnt go so hostile against hungarians as the romanian from Transylvania did.

In the mixed saxon-romanian villages I know in Transylvania, the feelings were not so sharp between these ethnics as in the case of mixed hungarian-romanian villages.

It is posible that saxons didnt greeted hungarian army necesarily as liberator, but in any case saxons didnt went very sad about changing administrations. They were more probably enthusiastic-neutral than against.

In other topic on this forum we debated the situation of hebrews from Transylvania, who were more enthusiastic when hungarian administration entered Transylvania in 1940 and that hebrews often regarded romanian administration as their opressor.

I propose a delimitation like this between diferent main ethnics from Transylvania when hungarian administration enter this province in 1940: hungarians - fully enthusiastic; hebrews - fully or at least very enthusiastic; saxons - enthusiastic to neutral; gipsies - a posible level of enthusiasm to neutral; romanians - scared and against new hungarian administration. How do you agree on this, gentlemen?

well, i'm not saxon, nor do i have any saxon relatives, so i couldn't tell.
i'm from TM; the Banat is a different issue when it comes to the attitude vs. hungarians, even back in '48.