Red Army in Romania - August 1944 |  |  |
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Red Army in Romania - August 1944| Victor |
Posted: June 27, 2003 07:01 am
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 Admin  Group: Admin Posts: 4350 Member No.: 3 Joined: February 11, 2003  |
What remained of Romania then was mostly south of the Carpathians. :wink: What was the point in continuing to fight when the war was lost? Why should the country be submitted to more destruction and devastation by the Soviets than it was?
The 50 years of Communism would have come no matter what we did. It was out of out hands. Unfortunately those who made the coup did not know this then and hoped that Romania would not be left by the West to the USSR. You have the benefit of hindsight. They did not, so try to be more reasonable and see things as they are: Grey, not just Black or White.
The Ardennes "offensive" was planned on the stocks of fuel they hoped to take from the Americans. I do not call that an offensive, but an act of desperation. The war was already lost. |
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| Victor |
Posted: June 27, 2003 07:02 am
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Admin Group: Admin Posts: 4350 Member No.: 3 Joined: February 11, 2003 |
To stop the Iasi-Chisinau Operation and retreat in order behind the AFNB line, one needed mechanized forces. More than there were available. The front in Moldavia had been broken. The gap was 140 km wide (Pascani – Chisinau) and 80 km deep. The front on the Dniester was no better: the Soviets had advanced about 90 km by 23 August. Resistance was futile and it would have yielded even more POWs for the Soviets. The time of negotiations had passed. In fact there was nothing to negotiate. |
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| allanteo667 |
Posted: June 27, 2003 10:02 pm
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Soldat  Group: Members Posts: 18 Member No.: 20 Joined: June 23, 2003 |
1) I accuse king michael of gambling with romania's future (not because he lost his bet). He wasn't experienced enough to take decisions of such scale! Even if the allies trid to prove the countrary, the germans lost the war with dignity! Romania didn't!
2) The ardennes offensive, which you qualify as a useless operation, made Gen. Patton himself doubt of the Allied victory! i know about the oil problem and the air supremacy problem (even though the "agonising" Luftwaffe launched an operation envolving some 1000 aircraft). Frightened by the german offensive's success, Churchill himself asked Stalin to releath the western front by launching an offensive, which he did by the end of the year! Many units, mostly Waffen SS (read Lothar van Greelen) were sent to Hungary! 3) A romanian resistance that would have lasted even a few days, wouldn't have been useless! Ribbentrop constantly complained that the military retreats always broke peace nnegociations, because they always motivated the ennemy into continuing the war! 4) The average german soldier was more disciplined and civilised than the caucasian or asian soviet soldiers, who lived in the desert steppe! Rember Ilya ehrenburg's call, to raiping, killing and destruction in all occupied territories! 5) You said that the armistice svaed many from becominng prisoners, but beside the 150000 already made what could have happened worse than the war at the west? the soviets humiliated the romanians by sending them do all the dirty work, and by leaving them no glory (if I'm not mistaking, they were send back after sieging Vienna -or Budapest- so they wouldn't "liberate" the city along with the red army! Their losses on the western front were probably proportionally higher *as getu' said) and they fought against "fascism", they didn't fight to defend the remains of their country! |
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| daveh |
Posted: June 28, 2003 09:06 am
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Fruntas  Group: Members Posts: 53 Member No.: 10 Joined: June 18, 2003 |
Can anyone suggest any reliable sources for Romanian history in English or French please. We are not taught anything about Romanian history in England nor indeed anything of the wider Balkan area. I would like to know more to follow this sort of discussion better
Thanks in advance. |
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| Victor |
Posted: June 29, 2003 05:18 am
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Admin Group: Admin Posts: 4350 Member No.: 3 Joined: February 11, 2003 |
A very good English source should be Keith Hitchins. |
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| Victor |
Posted: June 29, 2003 10:26 am
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Admin Group: Admin Posts: 4350 Member No.: 3 Joined: February 11, 2003 |
He was not alone. He was aided by others more experienced. It was, IMO the only viable solution. Antonescu refused time and time again to sign the armistice. He simply did not want to give upon Bessarabia and Northern Bukovina. This would have led to even more destruction and loss of life.
Please, some Americans still think that the war was won because of the Normandy landing. That does not make it true.
What negotiations? There was nothing to negotiate. The Soviet terms communicated through the Stockholm Embassy were pretty clear. Practically it was a dictate. Antonescu simply did not want to give up Bessarabia and Northern Bukovina as they requested and wanted to solve the problem at the end of the war. In the meantime USAAF bombers could have continued their raids without any Actual opposition.
Actually the Wehrmacht committed a lot of atrocities on Soviet soil as well.
It was Budapest, not Vienna. And they did fight for Transylvania. |
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| allanteo667 |
Posted: June 29, 2003 07:52 pm
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Soldat Group: Members Posts: 18 Member No.: 20 Joined: June 23, 2003 |
When Romania started the war against the soviet union, it was mostly because of Bassarabia and Bukovina, so giving these ancestral romanian territories without a fight would have been uncomprehensible!
And the armistice didn't stop the destructions and the losses! As I said, the losses on the western front were considerable! And even if Romania had theoretically become an allied country, the soviets kept "behaving" as if before! Which Americans still think that the Ardennes offensive of 1944 was insignificant? Are you sure that they are more qualified to judge it than general Patton, who is one of the best allied generals?! Even though you do not want to admit it, the ardennes offensive and the failure of the Market Garden operation made the "western" allies consider the german peace offers! Ribbentrop said it to the famous german stuka ace Oberst Hans Ulrich Rudel! Yes, the romanians did fight for Transilvania, but if we take it this way, Moldavia's soil had been romanian longer than transilvania! See the hungarian ethnical problems of today! Without trying to be "politically correct", the Moldavian soil is sacred![/quote] |
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| Benoit Douville |
Posted: June 30, 2003 12:59 am
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Soldat Group: Members Posts: 43 Member No.: 16 Joined: June 22, 2003 |
Romania started the War against the Soviet Union mostly because of Bessarabia and Bukovina :? So, are you suggesting that Antonescu joined the Third Reich regime for those territories only.
Regards |
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| dragos |
Posted: June 30, 2003 10:29 am
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 Admin Group: Admin Posts: 2397 Member No.: 2 Joined: February 11, 2003 |
It was because of the operation Barbarossa, which offered the opportunity to regain these territories. Our country alone against Soviet Union wouldn't have a chance. And Antonescu kept making pressures during the meetings with Hitler for Transylvania.
I don't side with russians, but how would you expect them to behave with an allied army that fought against them for 3 years, whose soldiers were used to shoot at them at sight?
There were indeed contacts between German and American officers involving an armistice, but Roosvelt had only one answer: unconditional surrender. The failure of Market-Garden (which was an allied offensive) or the German Ardennes offensive, resisted from the beginning, never made Allied Command think they could lose the war! |
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| Victor |
Posted: June 30, 2003 01:48 pm
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Admin Group: Admin Posts: 4350 Member No.: 3 Joined: February 11, 2003 |
It was not giving up without a fight. We had fought and lost them. There was ABSOLUTELY NO possibility to keep them. The best we could do was to go for Transylvania.
The little destruction in southern Moldavia, Wallachia and Dobruja would have been much, much greater if they would have become a real battleground. Not to mention even more refugees and civilian casualties. What happened in the "western" campaign, happened (with the exception of NW Transylvania) on non-Romanian soil. It is true that many Soviet soldiers behaved uncivilized, but imagine what would have happened if they encountered more resistance.
Pay attention please to what I write. I said that some Americans still believe that the Normandy landing won the war (see Ambrose). Patton doubted the Allied victory? Maybe he was trying to make himself look better for saving the day, just like Monty did. :wink: I believe von Rundstedt knew better when he "washed his hands" about this operation.
Right. The Allies were really trembling. Just after they defeated the last forces in the west capable of mounting a counteroffensive in the event of an Anglo-American attack. :roll: Also permit me to doubt Ribbentrop.
In fact Romanians most lived for a longer period and in greater numbers in Transylvania than in Bessarabia. But that is irrelevant. Hundreds of thousands died in WWI for the ideal of the Union. Do not make them twist in their graves. Btw, there are no Hungarian ethnical problems today. Fortunately we have come to resolve our issues in a civilized matter. |
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| mabadesc |
Posted: July 11, 2003 07:04 pm
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 Locotenent colonel  Group: Members Posts: 803 Member No.: 40 Joined: July 11, 2003 |
Nice debate! This just proves that different opinions provide interesting and stimulating discussions.
I have a couple of comments/questions (maybe a bit naive, so forgive me). 1. Just before 23 August, some officers were convinced that retreating the front line to the "Carpatii Orientali" would have allowed them to resist the Soviets almost indefinitely. Anybody heard of this, and what are your thoughts? 2. No doubt that Germany was losing the war, but I wonder if resisting the Soviets a few more days/weeks either along the FNB line or the proposed Carpati line would have allowed for a true armistice, instead of the capitulation offered by Mihai I and Sanatescu. 3. I don't think we can generalize and say "Germans were all civilized" and "Russians were all bad". Obviously, there are good people and bad people in each culture. Militarily speaking, German officers were more refined than Soviet officers, but they were just as opportunistic in sending Romanian troops as cannon fodder (carne de tun). In terms of theft, rape, pillage, and murder, however (at least in Romania), I think some Soviet soldiers won that category without a doubt. All thoughts and replies appreciated. |
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| Dénes |
Posted: July 11, 2003 08:10 pm
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 Admin Group: Admin Posts: 4368 Member No.: 4 Joined: June 17, 2003 |
The Eastern Carpathian Mountains would have undoubtedly been a formidable natural fortress against the Soviet 'Steamroller', much easier to defend than any other man-made obstacle. However, don't forget, in August 1944 it was also mostly the Hungarian-Rumanian border, so there were Hungarian soldiers defending it against the Red Army. Dénes |
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| allanteo667 |
Posted: July 11, 2003 08:32 pm
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Soldat Group: Members Posts: 18 Member No.: 20 Joined: June 23, 2003 |
About the Carpathians defense line, I don't think I still have to tell you how much I agree...
And what I said before about the german diplomatic efforts is valid for Romania! What conditions could a nation with a dismembered army propose to the "steamroller" ? Even a few weeks, or days, could have made the difference! Even if I can't denie that there were civilized ussians, you can't compare the german soldier's behaviour in romania with the soviets' ! :roll: |
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| Geto-Dacul |
Posted: July 12, 2003 05:12 pm
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 Plutonier adjutant  Group: Members Posts: 383 Member No.: 9 Joined: June 18, 2003 |
Victor wrote :
A real struggle for Moldavia would have meant a kind of historical investment for the future generations. Even if we lost them, that does not mean that we had lost them forever. After all, there are still 65% Romanians there! If we turn our back on them and only fight for Transylvania (as we did in 1944), just because Hungary is weaker, than we are opportunists and cowards. But we aren't, because the decisions taken on 23rd August were not approved by anybody other than an unexperienced young king, manipulated for sentimental reasons by a vicious 'camarila' (very similar to that of king Carol II).
The Soviets behaved as in an occupied country, as if they have encountered resistence. (Especially in Moldavia) As "allanteo" just said, we paid the same price, without exception, until the 50's, with the erradication of the Sovroms. Just a little quote : In the American Archives (that's what Dinu C. Giurescu says), there are the present statistics : Between 12 September 1944 - 30 June 1946, Romania payed for the "generous" armistice 1 050 006 910$ plus another 302 406 048$ for the war against Germany. Only between 12 Sept.1944 and 31 March 1947, the Soviet pillaging reached 1 500 Billion $ Source : SCORPAN Costin, ISTORIA ROMANIEI - Enciclopedie, Nemira, 1997, page 199.
The ideal of the Union did not only comprise Transylvania. As for the Romanians who lived more numerous and for a longer period in Transylvania (than in Bessarabia), from where did you take that? I don't want to be sarcastic, but such statements are also found in Roller's books! :wink: Dacia was from the Nistru to the Tisa, after all I know (and even further in the East and West, comprising today's Odessa and reaching the Bug in Ukraine)... Best regards, Getu' |
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| C-2 |
Posted: July 13, 2003 09:57 pm
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 General Medic  Group: Hosts Posts: 2453 Member No.: 19 Joined: June 23, 2003 |
About the dif.between the Russians soldiers and the Germans I heard a story from a well known person,which I won't mention his name; After the German army occupied a village in Basarabia,a German oficer asked the people of the village who has the "best wine".He was told that Mr X has. The next day a few army trucks entered Mr X's yard and took all the wine barrels from his celler. MrX was glad he wasn't shoot..... The very next day the German trucks and the German oficer came again.. They returned the empty barells ,gave Mr X a handfull of German Marks and a recipt ! Mr X could not belive his eyes! A few years passed and the story repeted itself.Only with the Russians... They entered Mr X celler opened fire on the wine barels ,and in a short time the celler was filed with wine.Then the soldiers jumped into the wine bath and the next day two were found drowned inside. Mr X who was an old man made a remark:"those men cannot even loot" |
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