russian army

[eugene]

What do romanians thought about the quality of Russian army in WWI?

[MMM]

Be more specific: back then, or after ww1? About all the troops or about the troops that "fought" (or rather didn't fight) alongside the Romaniana?
There are differences, also according to the period - because from march 1917, the Russian forces begun to disintegrate.

[Victor]

The question is pretty complex and would probably deserve a more thorough analysis.

As a short summary, the artillery, which generally kept its integrity until the end was regarded as very good. The infantry that from 1917 in gradually lost its cohesion and will to fight and even started to plunder Romanian villages behind the front wasn't regarded too well. What is certain though is that the Russian troops on the Romanian front were probably the most cohesive Russian forces in 1917.

[MMM]

What about the cavalry troops, then? Were they as "white" as one would expect?
Anyway, as part of the thorough analysis Victor mentioned, one has to keep in mind both the attitude of the Russian leaders from the very beginning (unfavourable to Romania's entry in the war, because it just prolongued the frontline too much for any gain to be obtained in the east) and the troops' wilfulness to fight on/for Romanian ground - that is before the revolution of march 1917, at least...
The question is indeed complex and I'm sure there are studies and books dedicated to it. Google them!

This post has been edited by MMM on June 18, 2009 03:25 pm

[feic7346]

You have to remember that that the czar had 10 million troops to start the war. By late 1916, maybe 2/3 of these had been killed captured or missing.! Tannenberg, Masuarian Lakes, 1915, Brusilov offensive had taken their toll. And this is not to mention the Turkish front!
In short the Russian army of 1917 was not the cohesive one that went to war for Mother Russia and the Czar in 1914! Most of those soldiers had been killed, captured or were missing.

[Victor]

And the rise of Bolshevist ideas within the ranks was also a factor undermining cohesion and willingness to fight. However, as mentioned before, the artillery was less affected by it than the infantry.

[feic7346]

The rise of Bolshevist ideas did have a part. But this was AFTER the czar had lost almost 7 million men at the front! Do you think Lenin and Trostsky would have succeeded if the czar had that army still in 1917? No way!

[Petre]

In "The History of the WW1 (Istorija pervoi mirovoi voiny) 1914-1918", one of the authors, F.S.Krinitsyn, wrote :

... 1916
On the Black Sea
When Romania entered war on The Entente side (August, 27th), the Russian fleet has started assistance to the Romanian armies and to the 47th Russian Army Corp. Romania, having only a river flotilla on Danube (20 monitors and gunboats), counted on the help of the Russian fleet. According to «The Agreement on sea questions», the help should be : transportations of troops across Danube, defence of Danube (including artillery support for troops) and of the Romanian coast of the Black Sea.
For actions on Danube, besides of an Expeditionary Corp with special function who was there since 1914, a gunboat group (Donets, Kubanets and Terets) and a mine-artillery group (about 1250 men, with 8x228-mm mortars, 8x152-mm and 4x120-mm guns, 4 MGs, 25 coastal torpedo launcers with 100 torpedoes and river mines) have been sent. These forces together with the Romanian river flotilla gave fire support near river for the Romanian troops, carried out transportation of troops on Danube and coast to coast, put mine barages. The russian ships have transported on Danube 44,600 men, 72 guns, 11,930 horses, 3,705 vehicles, 6 planes, 20 motor vehicles. Besides, to the beginning of October, the forces of the expeditionary corp have forwarded through the river (on ships and on floating bridges) 85,000 men, 24,000 horses, 8,000 animals, 173 guns, 7,000 vehicles and very much logistics.
For the defence of the romanian sea coast, one ship detachment has been formed - The Special-Purpose Detachment; there were the battleship Rostislav, 10 destroyers, 2 submarines, 8 minesweepers, 2 transporters and one air group. The ships were based in Constantsa and the planes on the lake Singol (near Constantsa). Constantsa has been used also as intermediate base for the destroyers operating to Varna and Bosporus. The naval group of Constantsa gave, at the beginning, artillery support to seaside flank of the 47th Russian Army Corp, made incidental bombardments of the occupied ports Balchik, Kavarna, Mangalia and participated in defence of Constantsa, up to its falling, Oct.22nd. The seaplanes of the Air Group flew to Mangalia, Varna, Evksinograd, Ghelendjik.
For minesweeping works 7 detachments have been formed (68 ships), with basing in Sevastopol, Kerch, Odessa, Constantsa.
The russian ships have executed large and efective minelaying actions at Bosporus, Varna, Constantsa. In the blockade of the Western area, a big role had those barages, so, new mine barages were put during campaign of 1917 at Bosphorus and Zonguldak. A mine barage between Tuzla and Kaliakra also was planified and, from Sulina, weekly there were sent 2 destroyers.
In 1917 the Russian fleet continued to defence of the mouths of Danube and to support the troops of the Romanian Front. In the spring, in connection with the preparation for offensive and with the activization of the Austro-Hungarian flotilla on the river, The Danube Riverine Flotilla has been formed. It gave artillery support to riverside flank of the troops, landed reconnaissance-diversionary groups, provided transportation and crossings of troops on Danube etc.
The sea transportations of troops and materials for the Romanian and the Southwest fronts from Odessa, Nikolaev, etc. have reached large sizes. From December till April 1917 there have been transported 195,000 men, 18,000 horses and animals, about 50,000 tons of cargoes.


According to the Convention with The Entente :
Since Aug.25th, 1916, the Russian fleet should provide the safety of Constantsa harbour, interfere with any landing of enemy troops on the coast and with any penetration on the mouth of the river.
The right of the Russian Black Sea fleet to use of Constantsa harbour and to take the necessary antisubmarine measures, will be recognized.
The Russian warships which will use the Danube for the protection of the river side and for the assistance rendering to the Romanian army and fleet, will be under the command of the Supreme command of the Romanian armies and will operate together with the Romanian monitors.

This post has been edited by Petre on November 17, 2009 07:37 pm

[Alexey]

Dear forum participants,
I am trying to establish communication with somebody, who may help me with the information about my grand-grandfather,Russian Army General, awarded by the Great Star of Romania.
Name: Pavel Markovich Andrianov (1877-1918) // Павел Маркович Андрианов; the spelling may be also Andrianof(f).
Status: General-major of the Russian Army, Commander of the 14th Infantry Division, later of the 8th Army Corp (in November), than - Commander of the 4th Army (all these units fought at the Romanian front in 1917).
Awarded by the Great Star of Rumania Orden, Quality of the Great Officer 06.11.1917 by the King of Romania.
Later in September, he got the St.George's Cross from the Russian Army H/O for 'the battle near the village of Muncelu, Romania'.
The questions I am interested to get answers are:
Are there any more detailed data on the matter?
Is there any archive of awarded persons, with their photos (I am very
interested to get the photo of the General Andrianov)?
Are there any historians, who devote their studies to the WWI, and may help me with the questions, raised above?
I can read Romanian (try to, as I know Spanish and Portuguese).
Alexey Naumov
Moscow-Russia
P.S. Probably, Victor Nity may help me?

[Alexey]

Just to add: more details of gen. Andrianov biography can be found at www.grwar.ru and www.regiment.ru (both web sites in Russian).

Isn't the fact of his award by the highestr Orden of Romania a proof of active participation of Russian army in the battles on Romanian front?

[Victor]

Hello,

You can find some details about the fighting near Muncelu here: http://www.worldwar2.ro/primulrazboi/?lang...=en&article=117
The Russian 8th Corps was one of the main actors of the fights.

Regarding the Order of the Star, it was and still is the highest order for civilians. The highest military order is the that of Michael the Brave, with the Star of Romania being second to it. However, it is still one of the most important military distinctions, especially the higher classes of the Order.

[Alexey]

Thank you, Victor.

But, can you provide any recommendations regarding the possible sources, where I can find the photo of the General Andrianov? Probably, because of his high rank, and action at the Romanian front his image appears in Romanian magazines, etc.?
In family archive, I have I photo, which as I wonder is of him: he was photographed in Romania (1917), but in civilan dress. I also found some group photos of the Odessa military school, where until 1915 he was a professor, with the Russian Zar (April 1914), but the quality does not allow to be 100% sure it is him. From all family photos, his face was cut during the civil war, and I understand the reasons (he was killed in 1918).
But I keep at home his St. George's Cross (Russian award for the battle at Muncelu), and some other medals, even one Romanian, as a memory of the visit of Nicolas II to Constanza in 1914. And in 1913 he took part at the opening of the memorial to Suvorov at the Rymnik field, I also keep the medal...

[contras]

About Russian army, there are many memories about it, maybe it must be posted some time.
I will put here just the remembers of Constantin Gane, the known author of "Trecute vieti de doamne si domnite". In his memories about ww1, where he was an active combatant, recounts the first meeting with Russian troops, in December 1916. He was part of Northern Romanian Army, and by this time, after the retreat in Moldova, the Russians came to backed the Romanian troops. (Prin viroage si coclauri, 1916-1917).
"The first units apear, and the Russians came to me and asked about "vutka". I said to them there are not vutka. They were so puzzled, and said if Russians came here, they need vutka. (the term for votka). " (quoted aprox)
After that, Russians robbed all the pharmaceutical stores, and the parfumes ones, and drinked all liqoures that contained alchool.

[Alexey]

Well, well, well... The war is the war. By the way, when I was looking through the documents, related with Russian troops at the Romanian front (at the Russian State Military Historucal Archive in Moscow) I have seen also interesting docts like "Petition to the high command about the necessity of uprising the value of money Russian troops need to by wine from Romanian producers, becose those have switched to higher prices".
Seriously speeking: can you provide me any recommendations for the following. 12-17 Artil I will be in Bucharest, for my professional affairs (seminar on agriculture). In case I will have free time, do yiu recommend to visit any museum, devoted to WWI? My aim is to find any photos of my grandgrandfather, Gen. Pavel Andrianov, who fought at the Rumanian front (see the corresponding post at this forum). I even was thinking to travel to the Muncelul area... What is your oppinion?

[Petre]

Some new and exciting things :
http://www.firstworldwarstudies.org/wp-con...rin_article.pdf