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War crimes

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petru	Posted: March 09, 2004 07:35 pm
Caporal Group: Members Posts: 117 Member No.: 149 Joined: November 27, 2003	There were crimes in Baneasa forest too. I think prof. iorga was shot in Baneasa. Probably that person mixes the two events.

Whodareswings	Posted: March 10, 2004 12:58 am
Soldat Group: Members Posts: 6 Member No.: 235 Joined: March 04, 2004	The book I mentioned (DCFRJDH) is a collection of copied documents in 8 volumes. The location of the abattoir (abator) is not given on page 197. I misread this. "la abatoruj communal" is simply mentioned with "la Jilava" and "la Baneasa" in the Jurnalul de Dimineat ? Duminica 21 Januarie 1945 as a place where some bodies were found. I did not see the comma (,) Sorry! I am still curious about the location of this place. And I am most curious about the career of Matatias Carp. Whodareswings [/quote]

Victor

Posted: March 10, 2004 02:36 pm

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QUOTE

There were crimes in Baneasa forest too. I think prof. iorga was shot in Baneasa. Probably that person mixes the two events.

Iorga was shot at Strejnic, which is near Ploiesti

Whodareswings

Posted: April 01, 2004 12:44 am

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QUOTE

Oh... There's a lot of litterature about the \"Romanian Holocaust\"! To see how correct Matatias's allegations may be, check the \"key\" years of publications and also the fact that Matatias Carp was writing propaganda articles for \"Signal\" magazine during 1941-1944! I personally saw his name in a 1943 French edition of this magazine... When I'll find the exact coordonates, I'll give them.

Best regards,

Getu'

Can anyone tell me about "Signal" magazine? (what sort of a publication was this? What kind of propaganda was Carp writing for it?) Or about Reserve Lieutenant I.N. Valescu, the Military prosecutor quoted by Matatias Carp in the Romanian edition of Cartea neagra? Is there a list of victims names in Carp's book?
Is there any testamony from this Reserve Lieutenant I.N. Valescu (or anyone else) about the event at the municipal abattoir, or about persons charged with those crimes, in Pe marginea prapastiei?

Is there any information about the prosecution of Legionaries after the revolt in Cristian Troncota's book about Antonescu's Chief of Intelligence, Eugen Cristescu? If so, please summerize as I don't read Romanian. Thank you.

Victor	Posted: June 20, 2005 04:54 am
Admin Group: Admin Posts: 4350 Member No.: 3 Joined: February 11, 2003	For those interested in the Report of the International Commission, it is published here on the site of the ISPAIM (http://www.ispaim.ro/), in both English and Romanian.

johnny_bi

Posted: June 21, 2005 02:26 am

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QUOTE ("Victor")

For those interested in the Report of the International Commission, it is published here on the site of the ISPAIM (http://www.ispaim.ro/ ), in both English and Romanian.

I've not read too much of the report (lack of time)...
"Romania, second after Nazi Germany"... "Between 280000 and 380000 Jewish victims"... "Some of the most hideous crimes."

I have read about the Antonescu's "intention" to deport all the Jewish population from the old Regat to Poland. There are some documents or there was only the intention? (I had no time yet to read all the report).

Well, I know that the death of one human is already too much, but I am impressed by the relativity of the figures in this report. After presenting waves of numbers, the commission couldn't estimate by itself the number of victims?

QUOTE

Various researchers have calculated different estimates of the death toll of Romanian and Ukrainian Jews under Romanian administration during the Holocaust. Dinu C. Giurescu counts at least 108,710 Romanian Jews who died in Transnistria; but this number does not take into account the Ukrainian Jewish victims or the Jews killed on the spot in Bessarabia and Bukovina. According to Dennis Deletant, between 220,000 and 270,000 Romanian and Ukrainian Jews perished in Transnistria, while Radu Ioanid asserts that at least 250,000 Jews died under Romanian jurisdiction. Matatias Carp mentions 264,900 Romanian Jews missing, but this does not include Ukrainian Jewish victims. Raul Hilberg cites the destruction of 270,000 Jews under the Romanians, as does Mark Rozen who counts roughly 155,000 Romanian Jews and 115,000 Ukrainian Jews killed in Transnistria. Finally, Jean Ancel maintains that 310,000 Jews perished in Transnistria alone, and to this must be added another 100,000 Jews killed in Bessarabia and Bukovina during the 1941 campaign in these provinces.

In summary, the total number of Romanian and Ukrainian Jews who perished in territories under Romanian administration is between 280,000 and 380,000.

Anybody, any comments?

This post has been edited by johnny_bi on June 21, 2005 03:08 am

Victor	Posted: June 21, 2005 05:25 am
Admin Group: Admin Posts: 4350 Member No.: 3 Joined: February 11, 2003	Indeed, it is regrettable that a definte number couldn't be established. A difference of 100,000 between the extremes is very high when talking about human lives.

dragos

Posted: June 21, 2005 07:26 am

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Here is what I wrote some time ago in the Romanian Army & Holocaust claims topic:

QUOTE (dragos)

The report says that Romanian authorities were responsible for the death of 280,000 - 380,000 and Jews in Romania and administered territories.

But how did they come to this number:

- between 45,000 and 60,000 Jews were killed in Bessarabia and Bukovina by Romanian and German troops in 1941 (how many by Romanians and how many by Germans?);

- in Transdnestra, between 105,000 and 120,000 Jews died because of the deportations (but not directly killed by Romanian troops, who may refute the possibility that some may have died because of the Germans before 1944 or because of the Soviet administration after 1944)

- in Transdnestra, between 115,000 and 180,000 Jews were killed, especially in Odessa and Golta and Berezovka counties. The executions in Odessa were carried, according to the known reports, by both Romanian and Germans troops. Why should the entire number must be attributed entirely to Romanians?

- in Iasi, at least 15,000 Jews were killed during the pogrom.

45,000 + 105,000 + 115,000 + 15,000 = 280,000 , and this is the lower figure of Jews killed for which the Romanian authorities and government should be responsible !

sid guttridge	Posted: June 21, 2005 09:48 am
Locotenent colonel Group: Members Posts: 862 Member No.: 591 Joined: May 19, 2005	Hi whodareswins, I have never seen the abattoir story used to "suggest a national propensity for barbarism". If true, it is only of discredit to the Iron Guard. Only if you think that the Iron Guard was synonymous with the Romanian nation could your conclusion be drawn. It was not. Cheers, Sid.

Dénes

Posted: May 03, 2006 08:59 pm

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The following is an official ACME News Photograph, published on Sept. 28, 1945, captioned as follows:

QUOTE

WWII Rumania Dr Fritz Klein Poisoned Bergen-Belsen KZ Lager Inmates

Obviously, Dr. Klein must have been a member of the German ethnic minority from Rumania. Any further info on him?

Gen. Dénes

Imperialist

Posted: May 03, 2006 09:47 pm

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QUOTE (Dénes @ May 3 2006, 08:59 PM)

Any further info on him?

Gen. Dénes

http://www.scrapbookpages.com/BergenBelsen...enBelsen09.html

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fritz_Klein

thank Google

--------------------

Jeroen

Posted: May 21, 2009 11:17 am

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QUOTE (Victor @ July 21, 2003 08:00 am)

A serious, objective work on the Romanian Holocaust has not appeared yet. Hopefully it will and it will point out those who were responsible, so that some authors stop blaming the whole Romanian Army and people for it.

Ion Antonescu was the one the head of the State and he took the important decisions. He did sanction any authors of executions. The deportations were made at his order. The instructions were to execute the Jews that could not keep up with the convoys. It is also true that he refused to hand over the Jews from the Regat to the Germans. This happened before the Soviet winter offensive at Stalingrad.

Some time has passed now

2007 saw publication of Rumanien, der Holocaust und der Logik der Gewalt, Oldenbourg Verlag, Munchen by Armin Heinen

Is this he first serious objective work on the subject? It is claimed to make use of newly available (German) sources, collected by Ottmar Trasca and Denis Deletant,among others.

Renate Nimtz-Koster in Suddeutscher zeitung (18.3.2008) claims it to be the first serious German language in extenso study about that thema.

How was it received in Romania?

"Heinen examines the perpetrators and their motives."
"Also it is written that unlike other countries the Rumanian case is based on local and voluntary cooperation with Germans on Judenvernichtung.
Because in comparision Romania was not occupied by German troops like Belarus, Poland, Hungary, France."

MMM	Posted: May 30, 2009 07:50 pm
General de divizie Group: Members Posts: 1463 Member No.: 2323 Joined: December 02, 2008	To whom do these lines belong? A historian, a journalist, what authority? I guess that we are eithe not ready yet or much too late to accept our share in the Holocaust. By "we", I mean Romanian people, of course... -------------------- M

Jeroen

Posted: May 30, 2009 08:29 pm

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QUOTE (Jeroen @ May 21, 2009 11:17 am)

Renate Nimtz-Koster in Suddeutscher zeitung (18.3.2008)

"Heinen examines the perpetrators and their motives."
"Also it is written that unlike other countries the Rumanian case is based on local and voluntary cooperation with Germans on Judenvernichtung.
Because in comparision Romania was not occupied by German troops like Belarus, Poland, Hungary, France."

These lines were by Dr. (philologie) R. Nimtz-Koster since 27 years in redaction of science departement of der Spiegel.

Another more recent book
Shai Dov, The Holocaust of the Jews of North Bukovina, 2006 Tel Aviv, 616 pages, is claimed to be a thorough researched work

21 inf	Posted: May 30, 2009 09:26 pm
General de corp de armata Group: Retired Posts: 1512 Member No.: 1232 Joined: January 05, 2007	Hungary was ocupied by Germany only in 1944. Till then Hungary was one of Germany's ally.

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