Romania and Polish-Soviet War of 1919/1920, Did Romania support Poland?

25.01.1918 the unrecognized state was renamed the Soviet Russian Republic
19.07.1918 – Russian Socialist Federal Soviet Republic
30.12.1922 Russia was united with the Ukrainian SSR, Byelorussian SSR and Transcaucasian SFSR, into the Soviet Union.

25.01.1918 the unrecognized state was renamed the Soviet Russian Republic
19.07.1918 – Russian Socialist Federal Soviet Republic
30.12.1922 Russia was united with the Ukrainian SSR, Byelorussian SSR and Transcaucasian SFSR, into the Soviet Union.

The key words are "unrecognized state"... yet feared by many...

About Romanian-Polish alliance in those times, Romanian troops occupied Pocutia and soma parts North to Bukovine at Polish demand, to make easier Polish military operations against Ukrainians. From our part of wiew, these military movements were ok, because we interdicted the comunications between Bolsheviks and Hungary.

With the 7th Infantry Division between May and August 1919.

Other events also "left a deep impact in Rumanian society". There are still old people alive remembering what happened to Romanians in Transylvania in 1940 (my mother among them - she was born in Zalau). And for what happened in the 1920's or in the XIXth century, even though there may be no live witnesses, the stories were not lost.
Same goes with the glorious "achievements" of the "liberating" Red Army - same story as in the other Eastern European countries blessed by them.
You know the proverb: There is no smoke without fire.
That is why "Ceausescu's national-Communist ideology" could get roots - because many things of the past were still "fresh" in the Romanian national memory.
And some actions of the Soviet, Hungarian and Bulgarian Communist governments contemporary with Ceausescu were far from being friendly, even before 1984.
Their attitude also helped a lot "Ceausescu's national-Communist ideology".

We all know - many Romanians are far from being saints.
But in regard with those Hungarians who derail from the European standards expected today, they are victim of what "impact" ?
Are they a produce of the national-Communist ideology of János Kádár, or a result of the national-Fascist ideology of Miklós Horthy ?

This post has been edited by Florin on February 09, 2013 07:45 pm

Why stop at Horthy? Let's get down to 1848 or even further...
Getting back on topic, Romania and Poland were too small to resist Russia / USSR / whatever the name is, provided the Russian authorities really wanted to win and provided the Allied forces didn't act. From what I've seen (and I get back to the military alliance post-1921), neither the Romanians nor the Poles took very serious the idea of a full-scale Soviet attack. Why was that?! Dunno...

Why stop at Horthy? Let's get down to 1848 or even further...
Getting back on topic, Romania and Poland were too small to resist Russia / USSR ....................

This message is only regarding to "attention to details".
A quote is supposed to show exactly the text under review. I did not write: "Getting back to the topic,", but you are right, we should.

Florin, sorry about the "misquote", but my keyboard "slipped" and, somehow, my "Get back to the topic" ended also in the quoted text.
Regarding "national communism", this was NOT a thing particular to Romania and Hungary. I would recommand the works of Fr. Soulet on the theme of post-ww2 communist states, but that's another question.
Now the dreaded "topic": the fact that we (Romania) were quite scared of the new, emerging, communist empire, weighed a lot in our aliance with Poland. At least in the 1920's...

About the discussed theme, I was reading on Wikipedia an information that has intrigued me:

From where could Hungary raise 30,000-men strong Cavalry Corps considering that the Red Russian Army had available at the most favorable time 1st Cavalry Army (Commander - Semyon Mikhailovich Budyonny) with about 16-17,000 men and the 2nd Cavalry Army (Commander -Oka Ivanovici Gorodovikov) had about 4-5,000 men, therefore did not exceed at their best 20,000 men! And a country with the army being set up (in 1920) an from which the Romanian armies began to retreat could send a 30,000 men string cavalry corps? Maybe 3,000 men is a realistic number closer to reality! And in terms of delivering Mauser rifles produced in Hungary I knew that Mannlicher rifles were produced in Hungary not Mauser, but whatever this is posted on the Wiki so...

Yeah, the number seems way too big! But the guy who wrote this seems to be quite serious (the author's page), although there is no reference (or quote) for this particular number. Perhaps a mistake, perhaps something else, but I, for one, will not replace the number until I find a clear confirmation of another - which is not quite my immediate concern.

IMO it is just propaganda, with not a single proof.

Someone could check how many Hungarian cavalry troops were in the A-H army in the last year of WWI, for example... then, the maths is simple!

All governments in the Capitalist system (in that moment, that meant the rest of the world) "were quite scared of the new, emerging, communist empire" - to use your words.
When you were a small and weak country with common border with that empire (Romania and Poland), it was reasonable to be even more scared.

Communism was a very strong idea in that moment, because everywhere the working class had a very hard life, and because most of the big crimes and injustices linked with Communism were yet to come.
Actually while people suffered in countries under Communist rule, meanwhile the capitalists "were quite scared of the new, emerging, communist empire", and as result the life of the working class steadily improved in the remaining Capitalist world - a process that started in 1920's and ended in early 1990's.
Today the Communist menace is fading, so the rights of the working people seem to slowly, slowly slide back to the early 1900's - at least in America, if not in Europe too.
It looks like my message is a gross drift from topic, but looking again to the quoted text, "... we (Romania) were quite scared of the new, emerging, communist empire.....At least in the 1920's...", I am adding: Anybody surprised ? In those days, The United States, The Weimar Republic, France and the British Empire were scared as well.
One of the least known things from those dark years of civil war and interventionist strategies is that even United States sent American troops in Siberia to help the counter-revolution.

This post has been edited by Florin on February 10, 2013 11:37 pm

The figure is certainly erroneous. Even if the Hungarians had that many cavalry troops, which they hadn't, they would need them for themselves in order to fight the Hungarian Reds (if needed), and/or the Rumanian interventionist troops.

Gen. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on February 11, 2013 10:11 am

Feared for the potential of an internal revolution inside the capitalist world, especially given the low morale of the Entente troops at the end of the war with Germany. From military point of view, Bolshevik Russia of 1919-1920 was far from being the threat it was starting from the 1930s. It was woefully disorganized, it was fighting a civil war, the military leadership was ensured mostly by common soldiers etc, etc.