The Battle of Turda/Torda/Thorenburg, 60 Years Ago...

60 years ago was the battle of of Turda/Torda/Thorenburg, where the largest combat in Transylvania took place. Overall, the battle lasted from September 5 to October 8, in three phases, between the German 8th and Hungarian 2nd Armies, against the Soviet 27th and Rumanian 4th Armies.

60 years ago today, on the 19th, was one of the fiercest combats between German-Hungarian and Soviet-Rumanian troops.

Gen. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on September 20, 2004 07:38 pm

Is there any order of battle, any book that would help me simulate this battle for a wargame?
Thank you

yep... my granny knows. figthing took place over 2 weeks in trenches in Indol village.. hungarian trenches were located there. she was 16 at that time...

her brother 15, ... used to guide russian tanks troughout the countryside ... she say. Russian artilery blasted the trenches from near turda gate. Russian t34 were easily destroyed by flamethowers. A romanian plane was downed and the villagers were called upon to see the fact... She has many storyes upon those events... Don't know how reliable they are Grenades and projectiles left in the arrable land made victims until the 60's.

This post has been edited by aerialls on October 01, 2004 02:06 pm

I'd love to find a good (online) topographical map of the area, even better a scan from a book dealing with the battle. Ive wanted to put a wargames scenario together of this battle for a while but I'm lacking a decent map and a detailed OB

Cheers

Bob

hi there...
check this:

http://www.hartionline.ro/ro/harta/e4.html
http://www.multimap.com/wi/browse.cgi?clie...out.x=9&out.y=9

you should improvise or imagine the battle: russian - romanian forces towards
S-E S S-V, hungarian and german forces in the north and middle i guess...

maybe Denes will help you with the oob if he can.

the first map is descentred... the large areea in the S-V is mountaneous.

This post has been edited by aerialls on October 10, 2004 07:39 pm

I found something in some books from 1960 to 1980 but I have to compile and put together those informations. Maybe in few days I'll be able to post a close view to oob.

I would be very interested in reading your findings on this battle, Dani. If you have the time, please do post some info., and please don't forget to include unit commanders if you have the names...

Thanks.

Thanks but I'm looking for something much more detailed. Topographical map at 1:100000 or 1:200000 would be excellent

Cheers

Bob

Try these:

http://www.multimap.com/map/browse.cgi?cli...=1&scale=200000

http://mapmachine.nationalgeographic.com/m...27333,46.660433

Great satellite view!!
Thank you for these links. Any ideas for the oob?

This post has been edited by Lysimachus on October 18, 2004 10:43 am

For OOB please allow me 1-2 days more. I haven't time enough last week.
Thanks!

Yesterday there was an official commemoration of the battle of Turda, held by Hungarian and Rumanian officials.
According to the Duna TV report (http://www.dunatv.hu/hirado/?200410170016) the Hungarian and German troops held the front around Turda against the tenfold numerical superiority of Soviet and Rumanian forces for 4 weeks. Reportedly, the Battle of Turda was one of the best defensive operations of the Royal Hungarian Honvédség. The Honvéd forces suffered 2500 KIAs and 7500 MIAs and POWs.
A monument was erected in the memory of the fallen Hungarian soldiers.

Gen. Dénes

An interesting and colourful appearance at the ceremonies held at Turda on the week-end was János Fenyvesi, a US Vietnam war veteran of Hungarian origin, who lost his father around Turda, in the Fall of 1944. In his speech, he noted: "in the jungles of Vietnam, eye-to-eye with Death, I realized that I must find out where my father rests on the battlefield. It was only much later, when I've heard of József Pataky, head of the local soldiers' grave maintenance committee, who informed me about the whereabouts of my father's final resting place."

Béla Markó, leader of the ****, noted the following: "Since [the Peace Treaty of] Trianon [of 1921], they continuously try to hammer into us that hero could be only someone who eventually won, who ended the war on the victor's side. Today, however, we could achieve progress, thus they now can accept and acknowledge: heroes were among the losers, too.
Today we realise, not solely one side can hold the ultimate truth, it can be shared by both sides, Hungarians and Rumanians of Transylvania alike.
Today we either jointly hold the truth, or jointly fail."
[Source: http://kronika.dntcj.ro]

Gen. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on October 19, 2004 03:41 am

Here are a few historical details related to the beginning of the Battle of Turda/Torda/Thorenburg, as given by a detailed Hungarian newspaper article:
Magyar Nemzet Online
Soviet mechanized units anticipated to occupy Turda (Torda) and Cluj (Kolozsvár) without any trouble. However, the advancing Red Army armoured units were stopped by the IIIrd Battalion of the Hungarian 25th Infantry Division (headquartered at Nagyvárad, in Rumanian Oradea, in German Grosswardein), at the road intersection at Vintul de Sus (in Hungarian Felvinc, in German Oberwintz) on Sept. 13.
The first three Soviet tanks were knocked out by Hungarian AT cannon section of the III./25 ID. The rest of the armoured column then spread out and attacked the defenders. With the help of a German AT unit, the Hungarians knocked out [an estimated] further 17 tanks. The attack was thus stopped, the Soviets regrouped and retreated to defensive positions. The attack was relaunched in the next days, but could not penetrate the defenders' lines.
Subsequently, the city of Turda changed hands several times, sometimes in bloody hand-to-hand combat and was finally taken by Soviet-Rumanian units only in early October 1944.

It's noteworthy that the entire enlisted personnel of the III./25 ID and another company was promoted one rank up for bravery on the battlefield - an unprecedented move in the history of the Honvédség.

Gen. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on October 19, 2004 06:52 pm

Here is a more detailed description of the Battle of Turda/Torda of September/October 1944 (excerpt from a book manuscript):

Gen. Dénes