Romanian vs Brandenburgers, Need some info

Hi Guys,

The Ardennes is not my area of expertise, so I will drop out now with one final question:

What specifically does Schadewitz say about the origins of the fluent (I emphasise "fluent") English speakers used in the Ardennes?

Cheers,

Sid.

I have not read Schadewitz, but I have other sources. My opinion is that Skorzeny's memoirs are best source of them all on this particular info. And he mentions the fact that his English-speaking members of "Operation Greif" were former Brandenburgers.

I have not read Schadewitz, but I have other sources. My opinion is that Skorzeny's memoirs are best source of them all on this particular info. And he mentions the fact that his English-speaking members of "Operation Greif" were former Brandenburgers.

Alexei, not necessary, sometimes do not entirely trust someone's memoirs, I do not have Schadewitz's book in my hand, but I can say for sure, there were only "handful" if not less who could speak English "fluently", and not all of them were "Brandenburgers", it took Skorzeny many times try to find those kind of men from Heer and Waffen-SS without much success !

Hi Mars,

I think you are wrong. There were very few fluent American-English speakers in Skorzeny's command during the Ardennes offensive and all were former Brandenbergers.

Please dig out Schadewitz as soon as practicable, as it seems to be the only source that may support your proposition.

Cheerrs,

Sid.

Some info and scans from Ian Westwell's book on Brandenburgers (Spearhead 13):

Einheit Stielau

Known Brandenburgers:

L/Cpl Wilhelm Schmidt
Oberfahnrich Gunther Billing
Cpl Manfred Pernass


And their fate in pictures:







I must apologise for the quality of pictures, but I am kinda new at using my scanner.

This post has been edited by Alexei2102 on June 12, 2006 12:41 pm

Please get back to the original topic.

I have not read Schadewitz, but I have other sources. My opinion is that Skorzeny's memoirs are best source of them all on this particular info. And he mentions the fact that his English-speaking members of "Operation Greif" were former Brandenburgers.

OK, this is what I got: Skorzeny received the order Oct 22, 1944 to organize Panzer Brigade 150, supposely consist of English-speaking German soldiers wearing American uniforms , traveled wi captured Allied viechles to infliltrate through the American line adn proceed ahead of German armored advance to seize the important bridges across the Meuse River from Namur to Liege, so called Operation Greif, skorzeny was grant to power to get any person and weapony from all service of Germany military system. However after more than 1 month, Skorzeny only managed to collect around 1000 men, among them, only TEN men could speak the American English perfectlywith a working knowledge of slang, most of them were sailors from Kriegs-marine who were employed as sailors before the war, 35 more men could speak American English well, but knew no slang and with German accent, another 300 could speak "some" English, and the overwhelming majority (700-800 men) could say no more than simple sentence such as "yes" or "no", there were seriouls flaw about weapon too, Skorzeny was supposely received 15 Sherman tanks, 32 armor cars, 198 trucks and 147 jeeps, instead he received only 2 Shearman tanks (only one of them was operational), 6 German halftracks, 57 jeeps and 74 trucks(only 15 of which were US Frod models), even the American uniforms were in short supply, some uniforms he received had "POW" sign on its back ! Five Panthers and five assault guns had to be crudely disguised with sheet mental to resemble M-10 tank destroyers to supplant the armored deficiency which of course hardly could deceive anybody.
Since Skorzeny had far few men than planed 3300-men strength, he had to demanded some regular army units(English not required) for stiffening, he received two parachute infantry battlions from KG 200, the 7th Panzer Grenadier Company and a mortar and signals company, and soldiers from SS Jagdverband Mitte and SS Fallschirmjager Battalion 600, his tank and assault gun crews were come from Panzerjager Battalion 655 and the 6th panzer division, at the eve of battle of Bulge, Skorzeny had 2500 men under his command,NO Brandenburg units were inculded in his OOB, of course it was possible there were some individial brandenburg commando joined Panzer Brigade 150.
A company of special jeep teams were organized under SS-HauptsturmFuhrer Steilau which include those spoke English best were planed to pentrate behind American line to sow confusion in the American rear, but because of the shortage of the US jeeps, only part of this company, 44 men in all, organized in 4 reconnaissance teams, two demolition groups and 6 lead commando teams, acutally pentrated the American line, the main force of Panzer Brigade 150 was trapped into the heavy traffic jam behind the aromor spearhead of the 6th panzer armee, by the evening of the second day of the battle of bulge, it seemed apparent to Skorzeny that no decisive breakthrough was going to manifes in the sixth panzer armee, so he asked and was grant to cancel his operation and commit his brigade as a regular combat unit.
the combat of Panzer Brigade 150 as a regular combat unit was a failure, Skorzeny suffered heavy loss and achieved virtually nothing, but his special unit performed well, although they inflicted little physical damage, the caused huge confusion behind America line, from this perspective, this part of operation was a success, but Germans paid a price, only 3 teams returned to German line without loss, and 3 other teams returned with calsualties, totaly 18 men, 12 of Germans commando were captured by American and later executed, Gunther Billing, Manfred Pernass and Wilhelm Schmidt were among them, by the way, what was your source these three were Brandenbergs ?, other 14 commando must be killed in the fire fight

Source of information: Ian Westwell's book on Brandenburgers (Spearhead 13)

To return back to the original topic.

Sid,

This is the most comprehensive description of Brandenburg FJB actions I came across.

On a side note, there was one other Brandenburg unit apparently facing the Romanians - 3rd Battalion from the 4th Brandenburg Regiment is reported to had been fighting around Klausenberg.

Marko

Hi Mark,

Since you're into Brandenburgers as well, you might enjoy this one also:

http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=3185

Check the latest entries, you're in for a small "Brandenburg" surprise.

All the best,

Alex

Indeed. Very nice, Alex!! Your're one lucky guy.

Don't know if anyone might be interested, but here is a small listing of feldpostnummer for the Brandenburgers:

Source: T315/2112, Frame 000498:
4th Rgt/Division ‘BR’ feldpostnummer, dated 14.1.44

Fuehrungsstab(KG v. Hugo) 58 838
Heimatstab 47 681
KG Walter 32 775
Stab. I./4. Rgt(KG Hollman) 35 302
1./4. Rgt 34 716
2./ “ 08 393
3./ “ 01 219
4. (Leg.)/ “ 09 529 (ehem.10./4.Rgt.)
Stab/II./4.Rgt 34 922
6./4.Rgt 45 194
7./ “ 00 825
8./ “ 02 050
9./ “ 07 087
Stab/III./4.Rgt 44 414
11./4. Rgt 44 414A
12./ “ 44 414B
13./ “ 44 414C
14./ “ 44 414D

15./4.Rgt 39 958
16./ “ 44 468
Stab/Leg.Btl./4.Rgt 57 281
1./Leg.Btl. 43 322
2./ “ 10 446
3./ “ (Leg. Verb. Seuberlich) 58 642

Source: T315/2112, Frame 000490, a document dated 5 Dec 43:

Division feldpostnummer and Standort

1. Rgt. 02 152, Freiburg/Br.
2. Rgt. 03 813, Baden bei Wien
3. Rgt. 44 040, Dueren/Rhld
4. Rgt. 47 681, Brandenburg/Havel
KJ-Abt. 06 378, Langenargen/Bodensee
Nachrichten-Abt. 26 485, Berlin-Zehlendorf
Einheit Kirchner 38 951, Brandenburg/Havel
Div.Stab. 05 411, Berlin
[Added from 9.9.43 document, Frame 000469]
Leg.Erg.Kp. 38 951, Brandenburg/Havel


These come very handy when checking in a Soldbuch or any other personal documents. The Brandenburgers never used the Divisional name in documents before 1943, so the FP number is the only way to make a correct ID.

Source of information - axishistory forums.

I don't know if this can be to anyone's interest, but I have somewhere Ian Westwell's book "The Brandenburgers. The Third Reich's Special Forces" in an electronic version and if anyone is interested I could put it online. It's about fifty pages long and has some nice maps and other useful info about the Brandenburgers. Just an offer if anyone is interested...

Excerpt from Kurowski's book on Brandenburgers

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This post has been edited by Alexei2102 on September 30, 2006 07:12 pm

Speaking of Brandenburg commandos and Romania does anyone have any details about the little-known action of a small combat engineer detachment of the Brandenburgers, which crossed the Danube in the night of 5th/6th April 1941 in the area of the Sipski Canal and occupied the Iron Gate?