German panzers given to Romania

[Victor]

QUOTE

The 108 StugIIIF sounds interesting for me. The Rumanian Infantry Divisions had Assault Gun battailons or other units used this panzers? Csaba

No. These served in the 1st Armored Division and in various armored detachments. In 1945, the remaining Stugs were impressed into service inthe 2nd Tank Regiment.

[Csaba Becze]

It means, that this division was totally replenished with panzers? How many tanks did they have in spring and summer, 1944? More, than 100 modern German panzers? It was a really powerful unit.

[tarzy]

but, about the top clas tanks like, Tiger I and II, the german didn't give to romanian army anything.
I read that after 23 august 1944, the rusian destroy many Tiger who tray to pass across the carpatian montain by Ciceu

[dragos]

Please note that the German army didn't offered us weapons for free, for the sake of helping Romanian Army. They were bough or bartered as part of economic plans elaborated by the Romanian government. The Germans did not sell top equipment, but mostly obsolete or worn.

[Dénes]

QUOTE

Please note that the German army didn't offered us weapons for free, for the sake of helping Romanian Army .

I don't exactly know the situation with tanks, but with warplanes, the Germans did lend to the Rumanians top-notch equipment, free of charge, starting from the Spring of 1943. Also, all maintenance, repair, ammunition, etc. was supplied by the Germans, at no cost. "All" the Rumanians had to supply was pilots and some fuel.
The catch was that these airplanes were to be used solely on the front, against the common enemy, thus could not be moved to the homeland. These airplanes remained German property, despite the ARR markings being painted on them.
I wouldn't be surprised if the situation with tanks would had been similar (from 1943 on).

Dénes

[luer]

QUOTE

The catch was that these airplanes were to be used solely on the front, against the common enemy, thus could not be moved to the homeland. These airplanes remained German property, despite the ARR markings being painted on them.   I wouldn't be surprised if the situation with tanks would had been similar (from 1943 on).

Indeed, in 43, 50 Pz38(t) (T-38's) were delievered to Romania with the requirement of using them at the front (they were used on Crimea and in the Kuban). But: they became Romanian property and they were not only completely obsolete but so worn that only 17 were initially serviceable. (The Hungarians had gotten 102 better ones). I would call it a serious rip-off.

As said, later better tanks were delivered, and they went directly to Romania (but the front wasn't far away anymore, anyway) and became her property.

The whole German policy of delivering equipment to her Allies and in particular to Romania (or even granting production licences; e.g the rejected license for the medium Czech tank T-21, that would have been an important improvement) seems really hard to understand, as it could have had immense influence on the performance of her Allies who suffered from lack of heavy equipment.
Parts of the explanation are probably:
-distrust (the weapons might be used against Germany one day)
-a completely overextended German war-production (that doesn't apply to turned down licences, though)
-(in Romania's case) Germany's fear of a war between Romania and Hungary, so they tried to maintain some sort of balance of power (by giving slightly better and more equipment to the Hungarians with their smaller army).

But I am aware that this can only be a part of the truth. L.

[Csaba Becze]

Rumania got more and more modern equipment from Germany, not Hungary... It was discussed many times in thirdreichforum, check it.

[luer]

I was only stating that in the 43 delivery the Hungarians had gotten more and the still running Pz38's.

Also, I said, the Germans tried to maintain a balance of power between the two countries. Germans not only controlled the production but also the licences for production of Czech designs and there the Romanians were constantly troubled by the Germans. That the Hungarian's relative strength was partly due to Swedish licences (and some Italian stuff) and smaller involvement at the EF doesn't really matter for the balance of power - ie in my opinion.

[Csaba Becze]

In 1943 the Hungarians didn't got any panzers from Germany (just planes and just for the eastern front, not for the home defence).

Germany didn't try to maintain a "balance of power" between Hungary and Rumania.

Hungary made really huge efforts, especially between 1938 and 1944 to make a relative strong and modern army. The possibilities were similar to Hungary, and Rumania - except for some "insignificant" details: Rumania was a victorious country after the WW I, and Hungary was a defeated and looted (it was forbidden to maintain or develop any modern weapons, units, etc). The Rumanians confiscated, for example, full modern war factories from Hungary.

About the licences: the T-21 was a weak, not modern panzer. BTW, the Turán had a LOT of developments and alterations, it was more Hungarian, than Czech. Hungary didn't have enough time and money to develop a good tank (they desperately tried it in late '30's) Why didn't develop Rumania a good medium tank? They had enough time, money and maybe help from French engineers also...
The Swedish licences: bah... The Toldi was a wery weak tank, without any chance in tanks vs. tanks battles (and the Swedish licences were accessible for the Rumanians also). For example: in summer, 1940, the Rumanians have approx 275 tanks with 37 mm guns (LT 35, Renault R-35, Renault FT-17) Hungary had only 80 Toldis (with 20 mm anti tan guns) We had not any tanks with 37 mm AT gun (this is your "balance of power")

Sorry, I don't have enough time to write a lot, just check the thirdreichforum

[luer]

Sorry if my statement on the Pz38's to HUngary in 43 was wrong, I found it in my book on the Romanians. But, other sources say that Hungary got 101 of them in 41-42.

However, I am very convinced that the Germans maintained a balance of power. That does not necessarily mean that the Hungarians got more than the Romanians, that only implies that the Romanians got way less than they wanted. With their oil, they could have paid for virtually anything they wanted - and they did not get it.

Before 1940, Romania was not at all under the German sphere of influence, so there was no chance to maintain a balance of power then. Also, I think it is critical to count the FT-17's and even the very unreliable R-35's into the calculation. French tank doctrine was outdated as one can see during the German campaign in France in 1940.

I agree that Hungary made huge efforts to create a decent tank force and I think they were successful with their Toldis, Turans (and Nimrods). True, these are not German deliveries, but maintaining a balance of power can be done in many ways, also in keeping one even lower than the other. The T-21 might have been weak but it would have been a major improvement to the Romanian forces anyway.

just my opinion, greetinx, Luer.

[Csaba Becze]

Your arguments don't assure me at all.

Hungary got 108 T-38's in 1942 (a lot of were commander's variant just with one MG instead of two) Your sources and knowledge are not enough about the Hungarian army.

Hungary didn't got from Germany, what they want (Hungary had oil also, and, for example, a lot of bauxite - it was very important for the plane industry) Rumania always got more weapons from Germany (I hate to repeat myself)

Your arguments are light-minded about the Rumanian tanks (can you read my text? Hungary didn't have at all any tanks with 37 mm gun in 1940)

Check the thirdreichforum for further details, cus this is a Rumanian forum, not a Hungarian. I wrote in thirdreichforum a lot of details.

[luer]

Yes, ,my knowledge about HUngary in the 2nd WW is less than on the Romanians and Slovaks, but does it really matter if it were 101 or 108 ?

So let's summarise: I say Germany tried to keep a balance of power between HUngary and Romania.

Your statement about the 1940 tank balance is true, and let's not even discuss how battleworthy FT-17's are and if you can compare tanks simply by their guns' calibres. That was 1940, so before Germany could have tried to maintain a balance of power, so no argument against mine.

Yes, I can read your text and you do not need to repeat yourself: Yes, Romania got more. But just so much to maintain a balance of power. And Hungary got less, because they had tanks of their own and because they were committing way less troops to the EF.

The balance of power always only applies to the troops at home, because those would have started a war.

But, you are right, this is very close to being off-topic, I agree with you on many points, not on all, maybe we can agree to disagree.

Cheers.

[Csaba Becze]

Your mistake was not just the number of the Hungarian T-38's, the year also. You wrote at first the year 1943, and later 1941 and 1942. It was in 1942. Very different situation from 1943 and 1941.

Compare tanks with gun calibres is just one point of view, but one of the most important. A 37 mm AT gun was enough to penetrate the Toldi's armour but the Toldi's gun...
I don't have enough time to write and explain here a lot(for example about other point of views). BTW I am afraid, that my explain for you is simply a waste of time, because your "balance of power" theory is your obsession (without any proof, of course)

Just another example. What do you think, why got Hungary a sqadron Tiger I in late spring, 1944? I know your answer: "the balance of power"...
In fact they got, because Model said: they distinguished themselves particularly during panzer battles and got this tanks as a gift for their valour.

[tempesta]

I red somewhere that the Pz38(t)s given to Romania by the germans were allready turned down by Hungary as unservicealble. Is this true?

[Csaba Becze]

No, it isn't true. BTW Hungary got some rejected Rumanian and German Messers in 1943 (it was the cause one excellent Hungarian pilots' death: he took off his first Bf 109 mission with one waste machine, but the engine stopped and he crashed to his death near the airport).