Vienna, 30 August 1940 - Award or Diktat ?

Wrong. According to the 1941 Hungarian census, Northern Transylvania (a 43,104 sq. km territory) had 2,633,000 inhabitants, where ethnic Hungarians were in slim majority (51.4%), with the Rumanians accounting to 42.0% and the Germans to 3.2% (the rest was made up by other minorities).

Gen. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on September 05, 2005 05:48 pm

So.. which source should we belive and whgy: the romanian source which says 51+% romanisn or the hungraian source which says 51+% hungarians ?

Politics is a biatch

1. Overall in historic Transylvania yes. In Northern Transylvania no (see my post above).
2. Rumania choose to seek for arbitration, rather to go to war.
3. Certainly yes. But not the worst.
4. Yes, they were. However, at that time they were the rulers and powerbrokers of Europe - along with Stalin.

Gen. Dénes

Following the Vienna Resolution, the Rumanians had no meaning to number the inhabitants of Northern Transylvania and their ethnic affiliation. By contrast, the Hungarians did.
Therefore I don't know what are the Rumanian figures based on.

Gen. Dénes

P.S. Politics is indeed a bitch. However, we're (attempting to) discuss history here, not politics - although some confuse the two disciplines.

This post has been edited by Dénes on September 05, 2005 06:01 pm

History is based on politics.

History is based on politics.

What I meant was current politics.

Gen. Dénes

Wrong. According to the 1941 Hungarian census, Northern Transylvania (a 43,104 sq. km territory) had 2,633,000 inhabitants, where ethnic Hungarians were in slim majority (51.4%), with the Rumanians accounting to 42.0% and the Germans to 3.2% (the rest was made up by other minorities).

Gen. Dénes

Check the censuses at from the following document:
http://www.ispaim.ro/doc/English/14%201.10.doc

Also it is obvious that at the time of Hungarian census, the Romanian population in North-Western Transylvania declined since 1940, which is the relevant year.

Exactly what I said,we beat the dead horse.And every time somebody will open the subject no conclusion will be reached.Just watch and see in this case as well. Personaly,I think it was a seizure.Wether Romanian politicians did the right thing,well,that's another thing.However,I don't really believe that in Northern Transylvania 51+% were Hungarians or ethnic Hungarians.And I don't think the Szekely considers themselves Hungarians . Born and raised in Sighisoara/Szegesvar/Schassburg and have both Szekely & Hungarians friends.I used to speak quite good the language,but somehow German took place.My grandma is in fact a Pap.Whatever,one thing remains,wether diktat or anytthing else,there were deportation and mass assasinations.And you can't blame Romanians for the feelings they have nowadays regarding the issue.One thing is for sure,the big fuss is made nowadays by the people not living there. I have never had anything,any problem,I always enjoyed to speak two languages(especially when I was in the army ). Live for 25 years there and then speak , yes , Hungarians so and Romanians that,whatever. If you leave them alone,minding their business everything will be just fine.And that's proven.Stir the pot and you'll get some nasty outcome.

It's your personal freedom to believe in what you want. However, official sources quoted above speak otherwise.

See above. It's similar to saying that Moldavians don't consider themselves Rumanian. Of course, there are a few hotheads who don't, but the overwhelming majority yes (just ask Alex H., for example).

It's actually Segesvár/Schäßburg.

I also have Rumanian and Moldavian friends...

True. On both sides.

By contrast, I did have problems speaking, privatelly, Hungarian, while in the Army (under Ceausescu's time).

Correct. I lived there exactly 25 years and speak both languages.

This is a fine example of what I wrote earlier, regarding mixing history with current politics. That's why we cannot reach even a basic historical understanding regarding this sensitive issue.

It's a fact that Transylvania currently is part of the Rumanian State. No-one in his/her right mind would actually want to change this fact. Now let's turn back to discussing history, leaving politics to others, who don't have anything better to do and indeed want to stir the (stinking) pot.

Gen. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on September 05, 2005 07:03 pm

To bo honest Denes I think you took my post in a very wrong manner. Probably neither Moldavians or whatever considers themselves Romanians, I never said that.There are hotheads who don't , ask Voronin.
Besides,it is Szegesvar , not Segesvar if you want to be a smart dude. And both styles of writing are correct , Schassburg , being one of them.
As for the rest,I won't even bother to answer you,wether you agree or not. Have a nice evening,sir.

It's not about 'smartdudeness', but being precise in what one states (you're wong regarding the spelling, by the way, but it shouldn't matter).

You, too. No hard feelings.

Gen. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on September 05, 2005 07:29 pm

Of course it doesn't matter as long as you were wrong.I don't think I was wrong in spelling,I just don't have the accent on my keyboard,which it will make it an "o" , yours is missing the "z" letter,hence your attempt to correct my grammar was as ridiculous as the whole further explanation.

I also don't have hard feelings.As I said,the subject of the diktat does not move me at all.At the end of the day,justice has been made.

Regarding the population issue, the last official census before the Vienna Diktat (the one in 1930) gives an absolute majority of Romanian ethnics in Transylvania as a whole and a simple majority of Romanians in the ceded portion of Transylvania (49.1% vs. 38% Hungarians).

Hi Guys,

The passage of time is slowly resolving this issue. Our retrospective arguments based on questionable census returns won't.

Cheers,

Sid.

Sid, please do not mix current politics and history.

What we are trying here is to sort out the historical facts, not the political rights for Transylvania, which is out of question.

Gen. Dénes