How good is the TR 85-M1 tank?

Penetrator was derived from the old Israeli M111. BM-412 sg (M309). It might be a result of a coproduction. These are designations that popped up at TankNet.

Penetration >450mm (presumed)
Here is the topic.
http://63.99.108.76/forums/index.php?showt...4&hl=tr-85&st=0

Here armyRecognition web site. It has some good pictures of the various vehicles in our army. You can see clearlly the Hull and the Turret of the TR-85. It is not a simple T-55 clone. It was redesigned from that. Take alook at one T-55 so you can compare it.

http://www.armyrecognition.com/europe/Roum...ex_materiel.htm

This post has been edited by tomcat1974 on May 30, 2006 06:42 pm

Those 25mm rounds must have had depleted uranium in their composition.
I dont think we use depleted uranium, so maybe that would explain the difference in caliber.

take care

BTW, good link to Tanknet. That was a very informative thread. I think that going forward that it is a very good tank for Romania. Only thing is, Romanian soldiers must have abundant training on it. In fact, with excellent training and confidence in their weapon system, I would say that any technical deficiency it has could go unnoticed in that region of the world.

I think it is counterproductive to compare the TR85M1 to the US M1A1 or A2. It's the tank you have, and soldiers with an inferiority complex will not fight as well. I think, though, that the TR85M1 should acquit itself well against T72s and the like, and against the current asymmetrical threat.

"asymmetrical threat" meaning RPG-7, or superior... And if Abrams is bad affected sometimes form those RPG's how good will perform our TR confronted with the same problems in an asymmetrcial conflict?

About what you said upper for 76 m.m. ... some years ago, i saw in an issue of one of the Army magazine one poster with a mobile AAA system by Otto Melara - maybe a prototype - armed with an automatic high rpm 76 m.m. radar guided. The system looked like a tank! And i asked myself how good will perform one of this mobile triple "A" in tank missions. I imagine 76 m.m. explosive shells and sub-calibre armour piercing ammonitions fired with high rate in a battle. Maybe, with his radar and fire control systems he can provide himself more chances against anti tank guided missiles. What do you think about that?

Iama

Those 25mm rounds must have had depleted uranium in their composition.
I dont think we use depleted uranium, so maybe that would explain the difference in caliber.

take care

DU has almost as same density as tungsten APFDS. Only thing is DU is a lot cheaper being a byproduct of Atomic Industry.

25mm 1 round might not pentrate a tank , but for sure it is a chain gun so a salvo (80-100 round) will ruin any tanker day

First of all, the M1 is "not" bad against RPG-7s. In fact, it is extremely good. There have been a few widely publicized penetrations of less-armored portions of the M1 by RPG7s, but only one instance of a serious injury/fatality and all of the M1s affected remained mission capable.

The key word here is survivability, not invincibility. As far as tanks in assymetrical warfare are concerned, they play two roles. One of which is show of force/intimidation. The second is in providing extremely responsive and mobile direct fire. I think the TR85M1 would do well in either one.

As for the 25mm not being able to penetrate a tank, you're wrong. I've seen 25mm APFDS penetrate a T72, both hull and turret. Either something is wrong with the stated penetration values of the ammo, or the effectiveness of the armor.

I have a theory on why ammo producers/governments would understate the effectiveness of their ammunition, but I have not collected enough data to support my thesis, so I'll wait on talking about that.

I sayed "sometimes" about RPG & Abrams. Anyway, i'm curious about the effect of the curent RPG types against this and other modern tanks. Anyway, is not the proper topic for that.

Anyway, if Abrams had problems in his patrols for sure TR will have bigger ones stepping on a hole were is two 155 m.m. projectiles in one antitank improvised mine. Our forces ar far from the momment where they will developed at far distances with MBTs. We don't have the possibility to transport them at distance, and a tank unit will eat more spendings then one motorised-infantry one.

Iama

Very good point. However, I think we are not in agreement on the purpose and shortcomings of armored vehicles. The problem is, armored vehicles are even more a collection of trade-offs than any other kind of vehicle and attempts to correct for one deficieny creates many more.

According to the Romanian Minister of Defence, Romanian military forces want to "specialize" in multinational conflicts, anyway, in the fields of mountain warfare and intelligence gathering. So a program to create an air-mobile tank may be counterproductive anyway. A small, stealthy scout platform may be more realistic.

Thanks for all the good information.

The sources are not wrong. The following was extracted from an old issue of TOP GUN magazine.

TR-85 M1

Crew: 4
Weight: 50 tons
Length: 9.96 m
Width: 3.435 m
Height: 3.1 m
Engine: 8 VS-A2T2 M 860 HP, Diesel turbo-supercharged.
Top Speed: 60 km/h
Range: 400 km
Overcomes vertical obstacles of 0.9 m
Crosses ditches of 2.8 m
Climbs slopes of max. 32 degrees.
Main gun: 100mm with reserve of 41 shells.
MGs: one 12.7 mm AA MG on top of the turret with a reserve of 750 bullets
one 7.62 mm MG in the turret with a reserve of 4500 bullets
Radio: Panther 2000, connect 4+1 radio stations.

In 1994 a modernization program began for the TR-85 and was finalized in 1999, when the TR-85M1 was first presented to the public in a Romanian military show.

Extra armor was added on the turret. The inside of the turret was also redesigned for better placement of the crew and new electronic equipment. The fire extinguisher system was replaced with a new non-toxic one which could put out the fire in maximum 80 milliseconds. A laser illumination warning system and auto flare disposer were also added. The brakes and suspensions were replaced and the engine was up-powered. The transmission was redesigned and a new metal-rubber track was installed.

A modern (CICLOP M) targeting system was installed. The gun can also fire APFSDS-T shells. The gun is electrically controlled and the turret's ball bearings were also changed thus obtaining a faster movement of the gun from target to target.

The radio system was replaced with modern Panther 2000 radio-stations produced in co-operation with Racal (AFAIK they use FS and are thus impossible to intercept).

The testing started in January and February 2000 on the first batch of 13 tanks and as I understand were quite successful. It was estimated that by 2005 all 315 tanks would be modernized. The plan wass to reduce the Romanian tank strength to 480 modern/modernized tanks, since the majority of the over 1,000 tanks in the Peoples Army were old T-55s.

The TR-85 is/was in service also in Egypt and Iraq. It was also tested in combat during the Iraq-Iran war.

Further details on the armament:
The main gun is an improved Chinese version of the Soviet D-10T
The 7.62 mm MG is PKT type and the 12.7 mm is a DShK

And the name of the tank is "Bizonul".

I believe TR 85 M 1 "medium" battle tank or main battle tank was projected in 1996 when Romanian's relations with NATO were not so good..., 100 mm CD 10 T2S riffled gun was the main gun in romanian tank forces.. so that could be the reason for mentaining it ..it's easier to use the same ammo for T 55 A AK K AM , TR 580 ( TR 77 ) and basic TR 85 ( P 800), it's easier to supply this type of ammo.. But the general modernisation is not so good.., the turret is bad designed and the space in the turret is not enough for the crue..., is very hard to adapt a new more pottent gun ..like 120 mm gun , simply there is no space for it ...
if the hull is very hard to adapt..the turret could be changed with a new one...like the south african did with their Oliphant MK 2 mbt .., there is no ERA .., no active jamming devices..., and the number of TR85M1 is very small...around of 50 in 2005...my believe is that the program must be reconsidered...

the project could be linked by TR 2000 planned mbt , TR 85 M 1 could use the same turret or a very similar one.., the shape of the turret is the same in front like old TR 85 turret.., very hard to protect by add on armour or ERA.., and the lack of ERA is very dangerous in close combat..against infantry with RPG's..look at the Cechen experience..., TR 85 M 1 is no tested in combat and nobody knows how it works..., but T 72 is well tested and T 80 and ukrainian T 84 are far more potent...and well adapted for eastern Europe terrain.., slow silouette , very mobile on soft ground.., well armed and protected..., TR 85 M 1 is no match for them....is no use to attack targets at 4000m if you can not destroy them at first round.., BM 412 sg APFSDS could destroy a target with maximum 445-450 mm of armour(cast steel) at 1000 m. T 80 has aroun 500 mm equivalent cast steel armour.., the last versions of T 72 is quite the same in strenght...

"Egypt, which is not a NATO member, is manufacturing M1A2. They got the license and manufacturing know-how from the US. "

...but egyptian made Abrams had no laminated armor...wich is essential,...and in these conditions it is no match for Merkava mk 3....

Bulgaria has around 400 T 72 and Hungary around 138 T 72...as their main battle tanks , but they have also Mil MI 24 support helicopters..., and what is a tank without a combat support helicopter ? Our IAR 330 SOCAT is only a medium lift helicopter good for transport only...and very vulnerable at a ground fire..., small arms included..., and it is big ...a big target...
and there is another question...why we didn't transform our T 55 , TR 77 and TR 85 in Achazarits instead of cutting them..?!

We've had 30 T 72 , around 600 TR 85(P 800) , around 400 TR 77(TR 580) and around 800 T 55(K,A,AK,AM) ...plus 1000 T 34/85 II...and 3 prototypes TR 125, in this moment there are 315 TR 85 ...( some 50 of them were upgraded to M1 standard)...the rest of them were "reduced"...so , we have 315 TR 85 , aprox 220 TR 77, aprox 700 T 55..., all of them with 100 mm CD 10 T 2S riffled gun...