Romanian-Polish Alliance

[Maciek]

In 1921 Romania & Poland signed military convention of alliance in case of Soviet attack.
Could anyone help me with OOB of Romanian Army anno 1938-39 (as accurate as possible, with unit garisons' location).
Perhaps someone knows about plans - which units would be used.
I know only that Romania agreed to stand with at least 17 infantry divisions, 2 cavalry divs and 200 aircrafts.

Thank You in advance.

[Iamandi]

Wait until tomorrow for my post - i have at home an old magazine
"The fight of all people" (Lupta intregului popor - am tradus cum trebuie?) with romanian OOB from 1939 and 1944 (23.08.1944), and some detailes about no. of weapon, etc. Tomorrow, more info. Until tomorrow, maybe in other posts, you were find...


Iama

[Victor]

The 1930s Romanian Army

Corps commands:
1st Corps: Craiova
2nd Corps: Bucharest
3rd Corps: Chisinau (Kishinev)
4th Corps: Iasi (Jassy)
5th Corps: Brasov
6th Corps: Cluj
7th Corps: Sibiu

Infantry Division commands:
1st Infantry Division: Timisoara (HQ) and other garrisons in Arad, Lugoj, Salonta
2nd Infantry Division: Craiova (HQ) and other garrisons in Calafat
3rd Infantry Division: Pitesti (HQ) and other garrisons in Campulung, Turnu Magurele
4th Infantry Division: Bucharest (HQ) and other garrisons in Giurgiu
5th Infantry Division: Buzau (HQ) and other garrisons in Ploiesti, Ramnicul Sarat
6th Infantry Division: Focsani (HQ) and other garrisons in Bacau, Targu Neamt
7th Infantry Division: Roman (HQ) and other garrisons in Botosani, Falticeni
8th Infantry Division: Cernauti (HQ) and other garrisons in Dorohoi, Suceava, Lipcani, Sadagura
9th Infantry Division: Cosntanta (HQ) and other garrisons in Medgidia, Silistra, Dobric
10th Infantry Division: Braila (HQ) and other garrisons in Tulcea, Calarasi
11th Infantry Division: Slatina (HQ) and other garrisons in Ramnicul Valcea, Caracal
12th Infantry Division: Ismail (HQ) and other garrisons in Bolgrad, Cetatea Alba
13th Infantry Division: Ploiesti (HQ) and other garrisons in Brasov, Targoviste
14th Infantry Division: Balti (HQ) and other garrisons in Iasi (Jassy), Ungheni, Feoresti
15th Infantry Division: Chisinau (Kishinev) (HQ) and other garrisons in Vaslui, Tighina (Bender)
16th Infantry Division: Dej (HQ) and other garrisons in Satu Mare, Carei
17th Infantry Division: Oradea (HQ) and other garrisons in Cluj
18th Infantry Division: Sibiu (HQ) and other garrisons in Sebes, Orastie, Carasenbes
19th Infantry Division: Turnu Severin (HQ) and other garrisons in Orsova, Caransebes
20th Infantry Division: Targu Mures (HQ) and other garrisons in Bistrita, Alba Iulia, Aiud
21st Infantry Division: Galati (HQ) and other garrisons in Barlad, Tecuci
Guard Division: Bucharest

Mountain Divisions:
1st Mountain Division: Sinaia (HQ) and other garrisons in Sfantu Gheorghe, Caransebes
2nd Mountain Division: Bistrita (HQ) and other garrisons in Aiud, Abrud, Zalau, Sighet
3rd Mountain Division: ?

Cavalry regiments:
Arad: 1 (11th Motorized Calarasi Regiment)
Timisoara: 1 (13th Calarasi Regiment (?) )
Oradea: 1
Sebes: 1
Cluj: 1
Craiova: 1 (1st Calarasi Regiment)
Caracal: 1 (2nd Motorized Calarasi Regiment)
Sibiu: 1 (10th Calarasi Regiment)
Ploiesti: 1 (4th Calarasi Regiment)
Bucharest: 5 (Guard Cavalry Regiment, 3rd Motorized Calarasi Regiment, 4th Rosiori Regiment, 9th Rosiori Regiment)
Calarasi: 1 (5th Calarasi Regiment)
Bazargic: 1 (12th Motorized Rosiori Regiment)
Constanta: 1 (9th Calarasi Regiment)
Galati: 1 (6th Calarasi Regiment)
Barlad: 2 (2nd Rosiori Regiment)
Bacau: 2
Roman: 1 (12th Calarasi Regiment (?))
Iasi: 1 (7th Calarasi Regiment)
Chisinau: 1 (3rd Rosiori Regiment)
Balti: 1 (6th Motorized Rosiori Regiment)
Botosani: 2 (8th Calarasi Regiment (?), 8th Rosiori Regiment)
Cernauti: 1 (11th Motorized Rosiori Regiment)
Islaz: 1 (10th Motorized Rosiori Regiment)

There are six remaining locations and six regiments (14th C, 15th C, 16th C, 1st R, 5th M R, 7th R, 13th R), but I have no idea where they were based then.

[Maciek]

Thank You Victor
Waiting for Iamandi's info about armament.
Perhaps someone knows about strategic plans?
Very interesting "what-if", don't You think?

[Iamandi]

I forgot!!! soryyy........

About What if, Hitler army have superiority in tactics, communications, and air superiority. 109 vs PZL 11, and 109 vs PZL 24 (RO)... No much chance for winning in air.

TK (? Polish tanks) was superior or inferior to LT-35 Skoda (Romanian version)? Let's check! What no. TK have Polish Army?

Iama

[Maciek]

Well... I was thinking rather of "what-if" against Soviets, not Germans.
Poland had defensive plans against "our eternal eastern beloved" :wink:

Soviets lost in september '39 a few hundred tanks in Poland (much of them not in fight but "because of low technical culture of their crews" (plese don't treat it as anti-soviet propaganda - it's translation of official report)
A lot of tanks were stopped for a few days because of lack of fuel, so "what-if" Romanian Army stroke the left wing of Soviets cutting their supply???

TK & TKS weren't tanks but tankettes - we had ca 400 (240 with 20mm gun, rest with machine gun)
Our light tanks were:
French Renault 35 - 50 tanks (more 50 payed, on the way from France to Romania (yes!))
Vickers - 32 tanks
and the best:
7TP (modified Vickers with wonderful Bofors 37 mm gun) - ca 130 tanks
Was it better or worse than German?
See the distances of penetration front armour (PL vs GER / GER vs PL):
PzKW I - 1800m / 0 (!)
PzKW II - 1500m / 250m
PzKW IIID - 1700m / 1500m
PzKW IVB-D - 400m / 2500m
both Skoda 35 & 38 - 1000m / 2000m
so only IV & CS Tanks were better - the main problem was in quantity, not quality.
Bofors guns were really good - Germans lost about 50 tanks near Mokra fighting against Wolynska Cav Brig - no Polish tanks, only AT guns (1 IX) and 50 tanks near Jordanow against 10th Motorised Brig (2 IX) - 8 Vickerses & AT guns.
About 1000 German tanks were destroyed and damaged during all September Campaign '39 !!!

Talking about "what-if" against Germans. I think the last chance was alliance with Czechoslovakia in 1938...

Regards

[dragos]

QUOTE

Well... I was thinking rather of \"what-if\" against Soviets, not Germans. Poland had defensive plans against \"our eternal eastern beloved\"  :wink:

A much stronger coallition than the hypothetical Romanian-Polish alliance waged war against Soviet Union, and it lost.

[Maciek]

Right...
with american land-lease for SU; on Russian soil... continental winter...

Defensiveplans - I said
Poles won one war against Soviet Union without any help (exept French advisors, some people say :wink: ) it was War 1920...

[dragos]

What do you think it would have taken for the Soviets to give up take what they want ? Because apparently their resources over-exceeded ours. And several blunders in military operations wouldn't have intimidated Stalin (see the Winter War, with Finnish Army performing outstanding but eventually the Soviets claiming the territory).

[Maciek]

True...
I could reply: "Tell it Chechenians"
But I say: "Your dreams never come true when You have no dreams"
(dreams about living in independent land, not dreams about war with Your neighbour, of course)
Anyway - alliance was signed in 1921, that's historic fact
:ro: :keep:

[Iamandi]

QUOTE

True... I could reply: \"Tell it Chechenians\" But I say: \"Your dreams never come true when You have no dreams\" (dreams about living in independent land, not dreams about war with Your neighbour, of course) Anyway - alliance was signed in 1921, that's historic fact :ro:  :keep:

This guy ... give as :ro: a slap, and a good one. Romania have some problems with her allys. I say this on the 23 - 08 - 2004. What was in same day of year '44? And now, we are in NATO, waiting for a new war - and a new Polish sacrified in first row - and a moment for Ro to switch the side. Maybe? Bleah!

Oh! Maciek, i ... forget again. Yes, is lobotomy, you are right... :laugh:


But, in 1939 Romanian Army was ready for a conflict? No!


Iamandi

[Maciek]

QUOTE

a new Polish sacrified in first row

Well... we are born romantic warriors (some people say: stupid romantics)
It's a matter of genetics - if sb lives between Germans & Russians - it's life or death :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

To tell the truth we hoped that NATO membership would be guaranty of peace, not new war, but there are still a lot of "smart guys" rulling some poor countries...

P.S. Don't worry Iamandi - don't hurry. I need this info about Romanian Army for creating "what-if" scenario for war strategy PC game (Operational Art of War - Century of Warfare) and now I'm bussy (with my friends) with scenario about "Polish-Soviet War 1920"

[Iamandi]

Maciek,

Please post a picture with "Blyskawica" (this submachine gun was projected and produced by de resistence movement under german ocuppation) and some data. After the war was the Polish Army weapon, or russian weapons was "preferred"?
And tell us some info about "wz. 1939 Mors" - i read about his secrecy - the soldiers were ordered not to let any of the weapons fall into the hands of the Germans... and none of them did. Aftert end of war was produced again? (i read 30-40 were produced)
kb wz. 1935/PzB 35(p) - you have some info about his performance against soviet or german tanks? Was projected for Uruguay? (Why Uruguay have a antitank rifle need?)
And, about "what if" scenario - an earlier deployment of this antitank rifle may came later with more succes against enemy tanks and vehicles?


Iama

[Maciek]

About "Blyskawica" - link only right now, more soon I hope
http://wilk.wpk.p.lodz.pl/~whatfor/blyskawica.htm
(sorry, it's in Polish...)
"Ur" wasn't prepared for Uruguay - It was a kind of camouflage against german intelligence service - nice to know it still works after 65 years :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
more info soon
"Mors" never reached serial production - only 50 units were done till sept'39
Constructors: P. Wilniewczyc & J. Skrzypinski (1936-38)
kaliber 9 mm, weight: 3,9 kg, longitude 840 mm, speed: 400 shots/min weight of bullet 11,7 g (type "parabellum" - 7,5 g), ciężar naboju , 25 bulets in (? - I don't know english equivalent for place of holding bullets in gun :oops: ).
more soon

[Maciek]

Try on this forum:

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewt...pic.php?t=12306