Romanian-Polish Alliance

"magazine" - in RO= "incarcator" - i learn this word from games :oops: i don't have english lesson in school.



Iama

QUOTE

\"magazine\" - in RO= \"incarcator\" - i learn this word from games  :oops:  i don't have english lesson in school.

Wouldn't it be rather 'clip'?

Col. Dénes

kb wz. 1935/PzB 35(p) "UR" - penetration: from 300 m - 15 mm of armour; from 100 m - 33 mm (practicly all german & soviet tanks '39).
After Polish Campaign '39 captured "URs" received german name - Panzer Buchse 35 (polnisch) and were used (among other) by german paratroopers in Eben Emael!!! (best recomendation, I think)
Later - about 600 were sold to Italy and were used till 1943!

QUOTE

And, about \"what if\" scenario - an earlier deployment of this antitank rifle may came later with more succes against enemy tanks and vehicles?        Iama

It wasn't a problem of earlier deployment only - 40 infantry regiments & 35 cavalry regiments used it from the first day of war.
Due to a kind of schizophrenic obsession (fear of espionage) of Polish HQ - too few soldiers could manage with that gun. It was a great mystery even for Polish soldiers in 1939!

more here (Polish again...)

http://www.wpk.p.lodz.pl/~bolas/main/uzbro...karabiny/ur.htm

about "Mors" - here

http://www.kampania.digimer.pl/uzbrojenie/...mors/index.html

Hurrah!
I found something in English!

http://hem.passagen.se/dadkri/Mors.htm
http://hem.passagen.se/dadkri/Wz35.htm

The text of the convention between Romania and Poland

http://www.unibuc.ro/eBooks/istorie/istori...1940/11-2-1.htm

Quick translation:

1. Romania and Poland will help each other, in case of unprovoked attack, at the eastern border.

In case of unprovoked attack upon one of the countries, the other will be considered at war and will undertake military actions.

4. In case of defensive war, none of the two parts can sign armistice or peace without the other.

5. The duration of the convention is of 5 years, and each part can denounce the convention after 2 years, with notification with 6 months in advance.

6. None of the parts can sign an alliance with a third part without the consent of the other. The existing alliances remain in function.

I've also the french text of this military alliance.

__________________________________________________
CONVENTION D’ALLIANCE DEFENSIVE ENTRE LA REPUBLIQUE DE POLOGNE ET LE ROYAUME DE ROUMANIE (3 MARS 1921)

Colonel Joseph Beck, Dernier rapport. Politique polonaise 1926-1939, Editions de la Baconnière, Neuchatel, 1951, page 330. Traduit du texte original polonais publié dans Dziennik Ustaw [bulletin des lois, Pologne], n°81, 8 octobre 1921.

Fermement résolus à sauvegarder la paix acquise au prix de tant de sacrifices, le Chef de l’Etat de la République de Pologne et Sa Majesté le Roi de Roumanie se sont mis d’accord pour conclure une convention d’alliance défensive. […]

Article I.
La Pologne et la Roumanie s’engagent à s’aider réciproquement dans le cas où l’une d’elles serait attaquée, sans provocation de sa part, sur ses frontières orientales actuelles.
En conséquence, au cas où l’un des Etats serait attaqué sans provocation de sa part, l’autre se considérera en état de guerre et lui prêtera une assistance armée.

Article II.
Afin de coordonner leurs efforts pacifiques, les deux gouvernements s’engagent à se concerter sur les questions de politique extérieure qui ont trait à leurs rapports avec leurs voisins de l’Est.

Article III.
Une convention militaire fixera la manière dont les deux pays se prêteront assistance, le cas échéant.
Cette convention sera soumise aux mêmes conditions que la présente convention quant à la durée et la dénonciation éventuelle.

Article IV.
Si, malgré leurs efforts pacifiques, les deux Etats se trouvaient en état de guerre défensive conformément à l’article 1er, ils s’engagent à ne traiter ni conclure l’armistice ni la paix l’un sans l’autre.

Article V.
La durée de la présente convention est de cinq ans à partir de sa signature, mais chacun des deux gouvernements est libre de la dénoncer après deux ans, en avisant l’autre six mois d’avance.

Article VI.
Aucune des Hautes Parties Contractantes ne pourra conclure une alliance avec une tierce puissance sans s’être concertée au préalable avec l’autre.
Sont dispensées de cette condition les alliances en vue du maintien des traités déjà signés en commun par la Pologne et par la Roumanie.
De pareilles alliances devront cependant être communiquées. […]

Fait à Bucarest, en double exemplaire, le 3 mars 1921.

Take Jonesco
E. Sapieha
__________________________________________________

Can anyone translate in english this part of the romanian text ?

Guvernul polon declară că cunoaşte acordurile României cu alte state pentru menţinerea tratatelor de la Trianon şi de la Neuilly, acorduri care vor putea fi transformate în tratatele de alianţă.
Guvernul român declară că cunoaşte acordurile Poloniei cu Republica Franceză.

Thanks

The Polish Government declares that it knows of Romania's agreements with other states regarding the maintaining of the Trianon and Neuilly treaties, agreements that could be transformed into alliance treaties.
The Romanian Government declares that it knows of Poland's agreements with the French Republic.

Thanks

Did anyone see this book:

"Relatiile Militare Romano-Polone in Perioada Interbelica (1918-1939)"

It was published in 2001, Editura Sigma.

I looked for it on the Sigma homepage, but it isnt there. Looked for it both "manually" and with the search engine, and nothing.

thanx

Hello Maciek. Mabye you should take a look to these links:
http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=2312
http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=2313

I have seen. Marian Chiriac Popescu, Relaţiile militare româno-polone în perioada interbelică (1918-1939), Bucureşti 2001.
Not the worst, but the picture is far from complete. Based on the Romanian sources mainly.

This post has been edited by woj on July 31, 2005 09:56 am

In the November 2001 issue of "Magazin Istoric" can be read an interesting article under the title "1918-1920 Romania Refuses to Occupy Ukraine".
It presents the Polish proposals for an alliance with Romania, whose goal would have been the occupation and partition of Ukraine.
The first official proposal was received by Romania on August 16th 1919. It proposed the immediate military occupation of Ukraine, and Romania was to receive the territory between Dniester, Dnieper and the Black Sea with a northern limit set by an imaginary line from the city of Lvov.
Later, on September 20th 1919, count Skrzynski, Marshall Pilsudski's envoy to Bucharest, put forward again the same proposal, this time offering to set up a common Romanian-Polish protectorate under the League of Nations, in Ukraine.
Romanian PM Ionel Bratianu officially responded that Romania does not desire such an adventure, and that a better solution would be intensifying negotiations for a political-military alliance between Romania and Poland.
In April 1920, Marshall Pilsudski approached PM Averescu with the same proposition. He claimed that if the Allies lacked a coherent eastern policy, Romania and Poland should have one and should impose it.
The Romanian side again rejected the plans.

Florin Anghel - 1918-1920. Romania refuses to occupy Ukraine (in Romanian only)