31st FG |  |  |
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31st FG| cainele_franctiror |
Posted: September 09, 2004 09:04 pm
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 Sublocotenent  Group: Members Posts: 449 Member No.: 334 Joined: September 01, 2004  |
When fought for the fist time the 31st Fighting Group in Romania? Who were teir aces?
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| Dénes |
Posted: September 09, 2004 09:21 pm
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 Admin  Group: Admin Posts: 4368 Member No.: 4 Joined: June 17, 2003 |
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| cainele_franctiror |
Posted: September 09, 2004 09:24 pm
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Sublocotenent Group: Members Posts: 449 Member No.: 334 Joined: September 01, 2004 |
great . danke
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| Victor |
Posted: September 10, 2004 07:27 am
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 Admin Group: Admin Posts: 4350 Member No.: 3 Joined: February 11, 2003 |
I have the 15th Air Force claim lists for the April-August 1944 period. It might help you get a beter picture from the other side for your book.
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| D13-th_Toppy |
Posted: October 17, 2004 08:16 pm
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Soldat  Group: Members Posts: 29 Member No.: 372 Joined: October 17, 2004 |
i would be interested in that. could u post it here, or send it to me at Toppy_thedoggyATyahoo.com? thx  |
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| D13-th_Mytzu |
Posted: October 17, 2004 09:34 pm
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General de brigada  Group: Members Posts: 1058 Member No.: 328 Joined: August 20, 2004 |
You mean the over inflated claims
 remember when one pilot claimed 5 Fw190 (although he was fighting IAR-80 but that is understandable) and we only lost 3 planes in that fight (2 of them due to colision) :] but as Johnnie Johnnson and Closterman both said before, the US pilots claims were something european pilots were laughing at |
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| Victor |
Posted: October 18, 2004 06:33 am
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Admin Group: Admin Posts: 4350 Member No.: 3 Joined: February 11, 2003 |
I can't post them as I have them on paper and there are hundreads of them. Regarding the overclaims, everybody did it D-13th Mytzu, including Romanians. The claims in the Odessa campaign are for example very optimist. Alos during 1944, check out the number of B-24s claimed by Romanians, Germans and FLak and you will see that they will probably surpass the actual losses.
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| D13-th_Mytzu |
Posted: October 18, 2004 09:13 am
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General de brigada Group: Members Posts: 1058 Member No.: 328 Joined: August 20, 2004 |
Ahh ofcourse everyone overclaimed, but it is funny to read british and french officer's opinion on how the us pilots/gunners claimed victories, also the comments they made (both Johnnie and Closterman) are hilarious
Anyway the claims of 31st would be very interesting (especially the ones from 23 june 1944) - me and Toppy are working on a movie regarding 23 june '44 operations and we have to clear some data we have, so if possible could you please look into that day ? Thank you very much. |
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| Victor |
Posted: October 19, 2004 11:57 am
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Admin Group: Admin Posts: 4350 Member No.: 3 Joined: February 11, 2003 |
1st lt. Robert M M Black FW-190 dam Ploiesti area 319th FS
Maj. Herschel H Green FW-190 dam Ploiesti area 317th FS Capt. Robert C Curtis Me-109 20m NW Bucharest 2nd FS 1st lt. Richard C Lampe FW-190 20m NW Bucharest 2nd FS 2nd lt. Willard C Pretzer [0.5] FW-190 20m NW Bucharest 2nd FS 1st lt. Daniel J Zoerb [0.5] 2nd lt, Dennis R Riddle Me-109 20m NW Bucharest 2nd FS 2nd lt, Dennis R Riddle Me-109 20m NW Bucharest 2nd FS Capt. Jack R Schneider [0.5] Me-109 20m NW Bucharest 2nd FS 1st lt. Daniel J Zoerb [0.5] 1st lt. George J Goettleman Me-109 20m NW Bucharest 4th FS 1st lt. Robert H McCampbel Mc.205 20m NW Bucharest 4th FS 1st lt. Frank H Tribbett 2 FW-190 20m NW Bucharest 4th FS Capt James O Tyler FW-190 20m NW Bucharest 4th FS Capt James O Tyler G.50 20m NW Bucharest 4th FS ? lt Charles C Borvidson Me-109 prob 20m NW Bucharest 2nd FS 1st lt. James L Brooks Me-109 Ploiesti 307th FS 1st lt. James L Brooks Me-109 dam Ploiesti 307th FS 2nd lt. Robert E Riddle 2 FW-190 Ploiesti 307th FS 2nd lt. Robert E Riddle 2 FW-190 dam Ploiesti 307th FS 1st lt. Maurice Dewey Surratt Me-109 Ploiesti 307th FS ? lt. William H Schanning Me-109 Ploiesti 307th FS Capt. Robert C Curtis FW-190 dam 20m NW Bucharest 2nd FS 1st lt. Frederick E Bullock Mc.205 20m NW Bucharest 4th FS Maj. Hercschel H Green Me-109 15m S Ploiesti 317th FS Capt. Thomas W Byrnes FW-190 10m N Bucharest 308th FS 2nd lt. John J Voll FW-190 10m N Bucharest 308th FS 2nd lt. John M Simmons FW-190 10m S Bucharest 317th FS 1st lt. Robert J Goebel Me-109 N Bucharest 308th FS 1st lt. Walter J Goehausen Jr Me-109 N Bucharest 308th FS Maj. Victor E Watford FW-190 prob Ploiesti 309th FS ? lt. Howard Baetjer II FW-190 dam Ploiesti 309th FS 2nd lt. Paul J Kastner FW-190 2m N Ploiesti317th FS 1st lt. Robert H McCampbell Mc.205 dam 44-02N, 21-01E 4th FS ? lt. Grewe Mc.205 dam 44-01N, 21-01E 4th FS 2nd lt. Cecil O Dean FW-190 20m W Ploiesti 317th FS |
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| Cantacuzino |
Posted: October 19, 2004 01:40 pm
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 Host  Group: Hosts Posts: 2328 Member No.: 144 Joined: November 17, 2003 |
Victor, more details on your list please !!! First the list is a mixed of three different fighter groups victories -325th FG (with 317FS,318FSand 319FS), 31 FG (with 307FS,308FS and 309FS) and 52FG (with 2FS, 4FS ) Second you didn't specify if all are for 23 june '44.
1st Lt. Zoerb is from 52FG. |
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| D13-th_Mytzu |
Posted: October 19, 2004 04:37 pm
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General de brigada Group: Members Posts: 1058 Member No.: 328 Joined: August 20, 2004 |
ok, this is what I have on 23 june (regarding US FG/FS that took part):
31st FG with 307th 308th and 309th Fighter Squadrons 52nd FG with 2nd, 4th and 5th FS 82nd FG with 95th FS 325th FG with 317th, 318th and 319th FS Those FG were covering the bomber formations (I only know about these 4 Fighter Groups, if you know about other ones that flew above Romania that day please let me know). This post has been edited by D13-th_Mytzu on October 19, 2004 04:39 pm |
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| D13-th_Mytzu |
Posted: October 19, 2004 05:44 pm
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General de brigada Group: Members Posts: 1058 Member No.: 328 Joined: August 20, 2004 |
Victor about your list - can you name your source ? Also:
- Herschel H Green also got 1 Bf109 25Km South of Ploiesti (I have a problem with his rank: I found him twice - one time as Maj. the other as Lt. - was he a Maj. on 23 june '44 ?) - Robert C Curtis also got one dammaged Fw190 - Daniel J Zoerb shot down a Fw190 and a Bf109, both were shared kills: Fw190 with Willard C. Pretzer, Bf109 with J.R. Schneider - Charles C Borvidson was a 2nd Lt. - Robert E Riddle had one Bf109 shot down among his 2 kills - William H Schanning was a 2nd Lt. - Robert C Curtis also shot down 1 Bf109 - Hercschel H Green also has 1 Fw190 dammaged - John M Simmons didn't know about that one thanks- Howard Baetjer was a 2nd Lt. (for those who didn't realise II means the 2nd )- Grewe was 2nd Lt. This post has been edited by D13-th_Mytzu on October 19, 2004 05:46 pm |
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| C-2 |
Posted: October 19, 2004 07:35 pm
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 General Medic Group: Hosts Posts: 2453 Member No.: 19 Joined: June 23, 2003 |
The Fw 190 were actually IAR 80-81.....
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| D13-th_Mytzu |
Posted: October 19, 2004 08:08 pm
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General de brigada Group: Members Posts: 1058 Member No.: 328 Joined: August 20, 2004 |
Not necessary, the IAR80 were suppose to form up with a group of Fw190's, but you are right about something: US pilots frequently misstook IAR80/81 for Fw190 or Italian planes.
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| C-2 |
Posted: October 19, 2004 08:12 pm
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General Medic Group: Hosts Posts: 2453 Member No.: 19 Joined: June 23, 2003 |
Not many 190's those days in Romania.
Most veterans never saw one. Those USAF vict. are surely IAR. Never heard of any German pilot of a 190 shoot down in that period in Romania. In the list above ,there are about 13!!!! |
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