Romanians in Austro-Hungarian Army

[Najroda]

My grandfather, an ethnic Romanian from Gyula, served in the A-H army during WW I. He was stationed at the island Mamula, hence my question in the pre-WWII forum. I will not go into further details here, because I am already off-topic

[dragos]

I have found an interesting article in Revista de Istorie Militara no.3-4/1996 (Military History Magazine)

Aproximately 500,000 men were mobilized from Transylvania by A-H Army, of which 41,737 were KIA and 11,275 died in hospitals, POW camps and prisons. 25,406 were invalids. From Banat, 115,000 Romanians fought in the first lines and 9,000 were used in services. 10,000 were KIA and 3,100 died in prisons and hospitals, 6,000 MIA and 6,300 invalids.

A large number of Romanians in A-H army deserted to Romania and the forces of Entente, especially in the summer of 1916 (approximately 39,000 military), when Romania declared war to Hungary. Others refused to fight against Romania. The most known case is the execution of 2nd Lt. Emil Rebreanu, decorated with the highest Austrian distinction awarded to a Romanian on Italian front, which tried to desert to Romanian lines in the night of 10/11 May 1917, and was captured and hanged on 14 May 1917.

As the number of Romanians deserters increased, A-H autorities initiated reprisals and persecutions, and even retreated the entire 64th Infantry Regiment from the front.

In August 1916, 120,000 Romanians from A-H army were POWs in Russia. Units of volunteers were formed after Romania entered the war, and they took part in the Romanian campaign.

[Najroda]

Thanks, interesting figures.

[dead-cat]

QUOTE

From Banat, 115,000 Romanians fought in the first lines and 9,000 were used in services. 10,000 were KIA and 3,100 died in prisons and hospitals, 6,000 MIA and 6,300 invalids.

does "Romanians" mean citizens of A-H. which declared themselves to be of romanian ethnicity or are these general figures for the entire population drafted from the region?

[Najroda]

In my rough calculation there could easilly have been about 500.000 ethnic Romanians conscripted in Hungary. There were almost 3 million in total, half of them men. Considering the demographic sitiation at the time, one may assume that 1/3 of the male population was under-age, and another third over-age, disabled, etc., which leaves about half a million.

Of course only little more than half of the conscripts were Romanians, since Hungarians and Germans combined were then still almost as numerous as the Romanians.

[Dénes]

I don't think that there was a total mobilization between 1914-1916 (or even later on), i.e. ALL conscript-age males drafted into the A.-H. Army. Therefore the half-a-million Rumanians from Transylvania is only the theoretical max. number.

[dragos]

QUOTE

does \"Romanians\" mean citizens of A-H. which declared themselves to be of romanian ethnicity or are these general figures for the entire population drafted from the region?

From Banat yes, 150,000 were only Romanian ethnics.

For 500,000 from Transylvania, the source does not state that they were only Romanians.

[Najroda]

Dragos, I don't think that figure for Banat can be correct. According to the 1910 census, 516.500 Romanians livd in the three provinces that made up the Banat (Torontál, Temes and Krassó-Szörény; their mutual borders obviously do not correspond with the current Romanian/Serb/Hungarian provinces, but their "external" borders were the rivers Tisza, Maros (Mures) and Danube, and the Carpathians/Wallachia to the east, so they covered exactly the historical Banat region).

Only around 250.000 were men, approximately 150.000 were adult men (the % of under-age was much higher than today), it is not possible even theoretically to conscript all adult men. Even in the case of total conscription, many are too old, disabled, or are exempted for one or another reason (undispensable profession, breadwinner of large family etc.)

For example my grandfather, who served in WW I, was never conscripted for WW2, at the start of which he was aged 43 and the father of 4. I don't know for which of the above reasons, or both. I don't think that being a carpenter he was considered undispensable

[Najroda]

Simmilarly, the figure of 500.000 for Transylvania can't possibly cover Romanians only. The 15 provinces that constituted the historical region of Transylvania (autonomous untill 1867), had 2.658.200 inhabitants in 1910, 1.460.300 (55,1%) of them Romanians , besides 909.100 (34,2%) Hungarians, 231.300 (8,7%) Germans and 57.500 (2,2%) other nationalities.

[dragos]

I don't know why did I write 150,000 :sillyme:
The figures in discussion are:

QUOTE

From Banat, 115,000 Romanians fought in the first lines and 9,000 were used in services. 10,000 were KIA and 3,100 died in prisons and hospitals, 6,000 MIA and 6,300 invalids.

For Transylvania, as I have said above, the source does not say that 500,000 were only Romanians.

[Najroda]

115.000 is still almost half the total male, ethnic Romanian population, and about 2/3 of the adult pop., which is unusually high.

[dead-cat]

from about 25 000 000 males in Austria-Hungary, 7 800 000 were mobilized, which translates into an average mobilization level of about 31%.

even Germany, which had a very high mobilization level (due chronical manpower shortages), mobilized about 33%.

ithink more than 40% is highly unrealistic.

[Najroda]

Thanks dead-cat. If you're % is correct for Bukovina, Hungary and specifically Transylvania, the figure of ethnic Romanian conscripts from Hungary must have been around 430.000 (of these, 230.000 from historical Transylvania and 80.000 from Banat) and some 45.000 from Bukovina.

I think there is no more doubt that dragos' figure of 500.000 for Transylvania included all nationalities, as it's almost exactly double the figure for Romanians from the above calculation. I'm not sure about the 115.000 from Banat. It's too high to cover only Romanians from the Banat, but on the other hand it's too low to cover all nationalities (Romanians numbered around 1/3), perhaps it represents the total number of conscripts from the part of Banat that eventually came under Romanian rule.

[dragos]

Regarding Romanians drafted from Banat, the difference is that I gave the number from a written source and you speculate on percentages used by A-H and Germany. :question:

[dead-cat]

if everybody drafts around 30-40%, then it's unlikely that someone drafts 66%, since there is no compelling reason to do so. the fact that something is written does not mean it is free from error, as we saw repeatedly. that's why a discussion wether a figure/fact makes sens or not, is imho usefull.