Border clashes in 1940

I don’t know if they could be assimilated to the border clashes, but several border aerial engagements between the Hungarian and Romanian air forces (or between one side air force and the other side AA artillery) which took place in the period preceding or succeeding the August 1940 Viena dictate are mentioned by various sources . Here is such an example, presenting the case of lt. av. Nicolae Polizu who shot down a Hungarian Caproni biplane bomber:
http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/baug...ther/he112.html

Probably the case is well known by Denes, because the above mentioned source quotes his book about the Heinkel He 112.

Did such aerial engagements also take place between Romanian and Soviet airplanes, before/after the June 1940 ultimatum?

This post has been edited by Agarici on July 18, 2005 05:59 pm

The Polizu episode is also known in Romania (see http://www.worldwar2.ro/arr/?article=724).

For incidents with the Soviet aircraft, see this older topic: http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=276

I still have a question, somehow off-topic. According to this site (Romanian Royal Aeronautics section, pilots subsection: http://www.worldwar2.ro/arr/?article=724 ):
“The 51st Fighter Squadron was transferred on 21 August to an airfield in Transylvania to counter the incursions of Hungarian reconnaissance aircraft over Romanian territory. But due to the poor characteristics of the He-112B, they were not able to.”
This fact is also confirmed by this source, presenting information about the Heinkel He 112 in Romanian service: http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/baug...ther/he112.html

But this is difficult for me to understand; according to both sources above, the top speed of a He 112 in B1 or B2 variants (both being in Romanian service) was around 500 km/hour (510 for He 112 B2). So how fast could have been the Hungarian recon planes? Were they using jet planes and I’m not aware of that ?

The note "poor characteristics" Victor refers to is not the top speed, which was quite adequate, but rather the low service ceiling, which was about 8,000 m (26,245 ft). Hungarian recce planes flew higher, so the He 112s could not catch them. That's why attempts were made to use Heinkel He 111s as interceptors, but no actual combat took place.

Gen. Dénes

The note "poor characteristics" Victor refers to is not the top speed, which was quite adequate, but rather the low service ceiling, which was about 8,000 m (26,245 ft). Hungarian recce planes flew higher, so the He 112s could not catch them. That's why attempts were made to use Heinkel He 111s as interceptors, but no actual combat took place.

Gen. Dénes

Well I’ve leaned something new today. Thanks. Sure, I should have realized that the speed is not everything, but this is part of the shortcomings of being less then an amateur in what aviation is concerned…

Now another silly question : what exactly (and I’m referring to the mechanical components) gives/influence the maximum service ceiling for a plane?
And did they really try to use He 111 (that quite cumbersome, armored bomber) for interception…??

First of all the strenght of the engine(s). Then the wing loading (weight/surface).

I said so. Yes, they did use twin-engine Heinkel He 111 bombers, because they didn't have anything better at that stage.
As noted earlier, the interception attemps were unsuccessful and thus the Hungarians could map the entire Transylvania in view of a planned offensive.

Gen. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on July 19, 2005 03:34 pm

Hi Denes,

What reconnaissance aircraft were the Hungarians using - the He70 or Ju86?

If so, what were the chances of, (1), an He111 catching an He70 or Ju86 and, (2), of shooting it down? I presume the He111 was superior to both, but in what significant areas and by what margin?

Cheers,

Sid.

Strange type of mission for He 111. Can He 111 shot down a He 70 or Ju 86 with his frontal side MG, or He 111 make a side by side position to obtain good angles for 2 of his MG... ??? And, He 111 is a big plane, and not so maneuvrable... and reccon planes had defensive MG (tomorrow i will see more data about 70/86).

I think this missions was not so successful, no?


Iama

Don't forget that the He 111 also had a 20 mm gun... but that didn't make the plane more maneuvrable. Also from what I know it was pretty well armour-protected - I think with the best protection among the early German WW2 bombers...

Don't forget that the He 111 also had a 20 mm gun... but that didn't make the plane more maneuvrable.

The Rumanians tried to use the Heinkel He 111 bomber as interceptor because they didn't have anything better.

The He 111s in service in ARR at the time of the Transylvanian crisis in the Summer of 1940 were the H-3 sub-type, which had only a 7.92 mm MG in its nose and not the 20 mm cannon (which was fitted to the later, H-6 sub-type).

As for Sid's questions, I have to dig into my files once home.

Gen. Dénes

The He 111s in service in ARR at the time of the Transylvanian crisis in the Summer of 1940 were the H-3 sub-type, which had only a 7.92 mm MG in its nose and not the 20 mm cannon (which was fitted to the later, H-6 sub-type).

But according to this site ( http://www.worldwar2.ro/arr/?article=755 ) the only listed difference between the H 3 and H 6 sub-types is the engine (2x1200 hp for the former, 2x1350 hp for the later). As for the defensive armament, both are presented as having 6x7,92 MG and 1x20 mm gun.

This post has been edited by Agarici on July 25, 2005 03:47 pm

That's wrong. Only the H-6 sub-type had the 20 mm cannon in its nose.

Gen. Dénes

Was in nose? Always i imagine that the He111 had that 20 m.m. cannon like romanian JRS 79F, in a ventral position.

Iama

Hi Iamandi,

I have heard of the JRS79B and JRS79B1, but what was the JRS79F?

Cheers,

Sid.

F from the Junkers Jumo "F" engine. I forgot full name of the engine, but were with "F" and with "Da" indicative.

Iama