War crimes commited against the Romanians

[johnny_bi]

What about the war crimes commited against the Romanians, on both civilians and militars? There were anyone found guilty of such a thing, or at least we do have any information on such facts?

[Geto-Dacul]

After the war the main war crimes were attributed to Hungarians & Nazis in Northern Transylvania... To Iuliu Maniu too, with the story of the "Maniu Guards" terrorizing the peaceful Romanian and Hungarian proletariat of the newly liberated Transylvania... :!:

From the Soviet side, is "war crime" including Soviet behavior with Romanian captured Romanian soldiers?

Getu'

[Dénes]

Getu' wrote:

QUOTE

Iuliu Maniu too, with the story of the \"Maniu Guards\" terrorizing the peaceful Romanian and Hungarian proletariat of the newly liberated Transylvania...

The attrocities you mentioned, committed by the so-called 'Maniu Guards', mainly on sekler (secui, székely) farmers in North-Eastern Transylvania, in the late Autumn of 1944, were real and are documented (it was one of the main reasons why Soviet forces took over administration of Northern Transylvania from the Rumanians for a few months). However, these Guards were paramilitary units, thus the Army cannot be directly blamed. Therefore this topic is not suitable for this thread, dealing with the Rumanian Army and war crimes commited against Rumanians.

Dénes

[Geto-Dacul]

Dénes wrote :

QUOTE

However, these Guards were paramilitary units, thus the Army cannot be directly blamed. Therefore this topic is not suitable for this thread, dealing with the Rumanian Army and war crimes commited against Rumanians.

Romanian historiography does not mention anything about such paramilitary units... I took the info about the "Maniu Guards" from a Scanteia daily newspaper from November 1944. I interprate this as the first communist attacks against the "historical" parties, and that after 23 August 1944.

QUOTE

(it was one of the main reasons why Soviet forces took over administration of Northern Transylvania from the Rumanians for a few months).

This reason was already evoqued by some Hungarian historians, if I remember correctly... It's like the Soviets were too good and did not make any war crimes, so we could trust them. The most plausible theory is that the Soviets took N.Transylvania under their administration to force the Romanian people to support a communist government, the only one that Moscow could trust. And what's surprizing is that after March 6, 1945 (First communist dominated government - Dr. Petru Groza) Stalin retrocedated N. Transylvania to Romanian administration.
Local crimes were surely made in N. Transylvania by both Hungarian administration (1940-1944), and Romanian Army fighting for it. And the Soviets were far from being angels.

Best regards,

G-D

[johnny_bi]

Denes said :

QUOTE

The attrocities you mentioned, committed by the so-called 'Maniu Guards', mainly on sekler (secui, székely) farmers in North-Eastern Transylvania, in the late Autumn of 1944, were real and are documented (it was one of the main reasons why Soviet forces took over administration of Northern Transylvania from the Rumanians for a few months).

It seems that Marin Preda mentions about "Sumanele negre" ... that was something you said... not "Maniu's Guards" ...
IMHO, the Soviets didn't care about the Romanians and Seklers ... they kept the autonomous regions in Transylvania in order to manipulate the Romanian government... IMHO, the race for Transylvania was not over at the end of WWII.
Transylvania was the exchange for a "peaceful" communisation of Romania.

[mabadesc]

QUOTE

IMHO, the race for Transylvania was not over at the end of WWII.   Transylvania was the exchange for a \"peaceful\" communisation of Romania.

Johnny, that's a very interesting theory. Could you elaborate?

Also, I'm a big fan of Marin Preda and I remember him writing about "Sumanele Negre" in his book "Cel mai Iubit dintre Paminteni", but I don't know anything about this group. Can someone give us a brief history/explanation of "Sumanele Negre"? What was their goal, what did they do, why, etc...

As for the atrocities (some real, some invented) committed by Romanians in Transylvania, it's strange that outside of Romania, all these are well publicised. But nobody has heard of the true atrocities committed by some Hungarian civilians against the Romanians during 1940-44, and even after, I might add...
And just the non-violent hostility in general...until recently - 20 years ago, if you drove through Tirgu-Mures for instance, and you didn't speak Hungarian, it's as if nobody understood you. You'd walk into a store, and if you asked for something in Romanian, they'd either tell you they only speak Hungarian or they simply refused to sell you anything and they asked you to leave the store...

[Dénes]

mabadesc wrote:

QUOTE

until recently - 20 years ago, if you drove through Tirgu-Mures for instance, and you didn't speak Hungarian, it's as if nobody understood you. You'd walk into a store, and if you asked for something in Romanian, they'd either tell you they only speak Hungarian or they simply refused to sell you anything and they asked you to leave the store...

As a person born and raised in Tg.Mures, I can tell you that what you've described is simply not true. Everybody (except maybe a few eldelry persons from the countryside) could and would speak Rumanian, if asked. It's nothing else but an urban legend, vehiculated mostly among Rumanians living outside Transylvania - in 'Regat', as indigenous Transylvanians say.

Please note that I don't wish to start a debate over this, as the issue is way off topic. I just simply wanted to rectify the allegation. This is my first and last post on this off topic.

Dénes

[Dénes]

Geto-Dacul wrote:

QUOTE

Romanian historiography does not mention anything about such paramilitary units...

Well, if history books published in Rumania don't mention the issue, it doesn't mean it did not exist, now does it? That's why one should consult a large variety of sources and draw his/her own conclusions...

QUOTE

Quote:   (it was one of the main reasons why Soviet forces took over administration of Northern Transylvania from the Rumanians for a few months).   This reason was already evoqued by some Hungarian historians, if I remember correctly... It's like the Soviets were too good and did not make any war crimes, so we could trust them. The most plausible theory is that the Soviets took N.Transylvania under their administration to force the Romanian people to support a communist government, the only one that Moscow could trust.

I agree that the Soviets were not overly sensitive of a little ethnic violence involving their former enemies. However, this could have disrupted the Red Army supply lines and influenced military activity immediately behind the front zone; moreover, it could have cast a dark shadow internationally over an area under Soviet rule, which Stalin probably did not want.

I agree again that another aspect was Moscow's desire to influence the Rumanian Government in embracing the 'people's democracy', Soviet style. Transylvania was a perfect bargaining chip in Stalin's hands. It was not a slip of the tongue when Stalin declared that after the war, the whole Transylvania, or most part of it, has to be returned to Rumania...

Dénes

[johnny_bi]

Denes said :

QUOTE

However, this could have disrupted the Red Army supply lines and influenced military activity immediately behind the front zone; moreover, it could have cast a dark shadow internationally over an area under Soviet rule, which Stalin probably did not want

This is a far too intricated suposition... That time I do not think that the Soviets were so sensitive to such problems... There were also too much dark areas over their zone of influence ...

[johnny_bi]

Denes said:

QUOTE

mabadesc wrote:   Quote:   until recently - 20 years ago, if you drove through Tirgu-Mures for instance, and you didn't speak Hungarian, it's as if nobody understood you. You'd walk into a store, and if you asked for something in Romanian, they'd either tell you they only speak Hungarian or they simply refused to sell you anything and they asked you to leave the store...   As a person born and raised in Tg.Mures, I can tell you that what you've described is simply not true. Everybody (except maybe a few eldelry persons from the countryside) could and would speak Rumanian, if asked. It's nothing else but an urban legend, vehiculated mostly outside Transylvania.

Yes, 90% of my floks including my father and one of my sisters live there...
Generally it is not true, they speak your language, Romanian and Hungarian... There are some rare cases where it is advisable to speak Hungarian , if you know... elsewhere some services would become unavailable... But, I repeat, as I said, generally you are welcome with the expression "Tershek - Pophtitzi" ... anyone needs clients ... no matter their language.

[johnny_bi]

...

[johnny_bi]

Actually I was interested in the war crimes on the Eastern Front... And if the Romanians, civilians or militaries, were victims of such war crimes. And if there is any information of such crimes.

[mabadesc]

Denes - I was never in Tg. Mures so I'm sure you and johnny-bi know the situation better than I do. I simply repeated what I heard and read - can't say if it's true or not, and frankly, it's not my area of interest.

[inahurry]

Geto-Dacul wrote :

"Local crimes were surely made in N. Transylvania by both Hungarian administration (1940-1944), and Romanian Army fighting for it"

Let's hear about the Romanian Army's war crimes in Transylvania........
......
listening!!! ..... "hello! is there anybody out there ?"
......

Sounds very much like the "looting" of Budapest in 1919. Too bad russians took all the credit for the liberation of Budapest in ww2, otherwise the romanian army there would surely be blamed for "looting" it again. And this when explicit orders were issued to protect the architectural important buildings ! For comparison - Baghdad 2003 rings a bell ?

[Geto-Dacul]

inahurry wrote :

QUOTE

Let's hear about the Romanian Army's war crimes in Transylvania........   ......   listening!!! ..... \"hello! is there anybody out there ?\"   ......

I do not have any exact data on these crimes, because most of them were local and isolated acts of revenge... (if they were). But its for sure that crimes were made ; in any war there are crimes. And I don't think that every Romanian was indifferent to the Hungarian occupation of 1940-44.