Is Romania going to purchase Sepecat Jaguars?

Over last few weeks I have read several different sources, including posts on this forum that claim that the Romanian Air Force is going to purchase Ex-RAF Jaguars from the United Kingdom. I have several questions that I like answered this possible purchase of ageing, yet still effective attack aircraft.


First- is the Romanian Air Force going to buy these aircraft?

Second- if so how many Jaguars is the Romanian Air Force planning on buying and how much is Romania paying for them, the deal is only good if we get them "cheap"?

Three- if the Romanian Air Force is going to buy Jaguars? are there still going to purchase 36-48 new or least more capable fighters such as the Eurofighter, SAAB JAS Gripen, Dassault Rafale or even F-16s.

It was just a rumour, nothing serious. Anyway, Romania already bought military equipment from Britain (the two Type 42 frigates). It's USA's turn now to sell us something.

The purchase of Jagaurs by the Romanian Air Force may be rumour but; it seems viable because I read in Air Forces Monthly magazine that the British plan on retiring their entire fleet of Jagaurs. So they will try to sell them to anyone that they can. Romania makes sense, because it has a good relationship with UK and they have already sold Romanian a pair of Type-22 frigates; so British likey want build upon that sales success with Romania.


Also if Romania purchase fighters from the US they could only be F-16s or F-18s which while clearly better then Jaguars. They are both also inferior to Eurofigters, SAAB JAS-39 Gripens or Dassualt Refales. So Romania should only buy them if they are sold cheap or donated, because at full price they not as good as some of the other fighters that are on the world market today.

This post has been edited by Stephen on October 11, 2004 02:36 am

About F-16's and F/A-18 fighters, Stephen said:

That's a very interesting assessment. Let's leave aside the F-16 and just focus on the F-18.

On what studies, or on what facts and data do you base your claim that it's inferior to the Eurofighter, Grippen, and the Rafale?

Thanks.

I keep hearing the that the Romanian Air Force is going to purchase a batch of ex-RAF Jagaurs. If anyone has any new imformation regarding this subject, please post it.

Thank you.

This post has been edited by Stephen on October 13, 2004 07:08 am

That's a very interesting assessment. Let's leave aside the F-16 and just focus on the F-18.

On what studies, or on what facts and data do you base your claim that it's inferior to the Eurofighter, Grippen, and the Rafale?

Thanks.

The F/A-18 Hornet is "good" design, however it is past its prime. The Eurofighter, SAAB JRS-39 Gripen and Dassault Rafale are 5th generation fighters, while F/A-18 is at best a 4th generation fighter.

Hungary and the Czech Republic selected SAAB JRS-39 in compatitions which included the F/A-18, so they must have thought F/A-18 was inferior, especaily sense it was offered to them cheaper!

In the US Navy and US Marines it is considered a jack of all trades, and as such a master of none. Its greatest perceived weekness is in air to air combat were it would mostly be out fought by aircraft such as the Mig-29M Fulcrums and SU-27/30/35 Flankers, providing that they were piloted by well trained airmen. Sense these are its most likely opponents, that would not make F/A-18 a good choice for the Romanian Air Force.

The Eurofighter, Gripen and Rafale are much newer designs therefore they feature more advanced avionics, superior all-round performance and superior engines except for the Gripen, which basically has same engine. Though the new F/A F-18 E/F Super Hornet may match up more evenly, but it is still not as good as the Eurofighter,Gripen and Rafale are. Super Hornets have not yet been exported and the US has cut its requirement from 1000 to only 488, so maybe their not really happy with them?

Thank you.

This post has been edited by Stephen on October 13, 2004 07:53 am

Stephen,

Age is not an issue. All successful jets go through massive modernizations and replacements of their electronic, avionic, and armament systems. The F/A -18 has gone through this repeatedly, so it is up to par with any 5th generation fighter. Not to mention its new iteration, the Super Hornet.

With regards to the smaller order of the Super Hornet, you should not automatically assume it's because the military is not happy with them. It's a question of strategies and philosophies. Rumsfeld is very much in favor of a small, hi-tech military. Right now the US is investing huge amounts of money into UAV research and production. Also, they are waiting for deliveries of the F-22 Raptor and the JSF.

I am not claiming the Grippen, Eurofighter, and Rafale are not good jets. I am sure they are, although the Grippen has been referred to in the press as a "good, light-weight fighter", while the Rafale has not received good reviews to my knowledge.

I won't say the F-18 Super Hornet is the best jet because I don't know enough about modern fighter jets. But I don't think you can assume it's inferior to the jets you mentioned based on your claims you have stated.

In any case, I respect your opinion, and thanks for taking the time to respond to me.

Hm! Mabadesc... if you don't observed, you not explain about your consideration - F/A 18 vs. Eurofighter, Grippen and Rafale...

You talk about a new plaes against an one with a project dated in some '70 era - you know about 18 was a "up-grade"d prototype of YF-17, who losed in front of one who was elected to be... F-16, no?
Certainly, "18" is not a real fighter - is a complex mission plane, some like "jabo" - if you let me make this vague analogy. Of course, Grippen, Eurofighter and Rafale have option to make ground atack, precision atack, antishiping, and anti radar role, but in esence this 3 planes are ... more (like) fighters from project.
And, electronic of the 3 new planes is better - not from time to time up-graded like in case of Hornet -> Super Hornet.
A good point for Super Hornet - i dont know if it is adopted in full production - is a new model of "elastic" wings. The prototype obtained some good results, an encrease of performance in "dog-fihts" - a super maneuvrability .


And, Jaguar, is not a bad plane. Romania throw it away her IAR 93 dedicated plane from tactical ground atack planes, no? Aaaaa, now we have LanceRs... yeah, right! But, this planes are fliyng to close to ground...

If you - mabadesc, or Stephen - want more, lets say arguments.

Iama

Do you have any idea of the differences between the striking capabilities of a IAR 93 compared to those of the Lancer A or of a IAR-99 Soim or are you just picking things up from the press?

A fleet of Jaguars would be the perfect replacement for the old IAR-93's, which Romania really should have been upgraded, rather then retired early. What ever happan to entire fleet of IAR-93's? why are they not being sold? Their has to be some country that wants cheap basic attack planes. The RAF's Jaguars were equipped to a extemly high standard and have excellent combat records. If Romania can aquire some Jaguars cheap, and then about 48 SAAB JAS-39 Gripens in 2008-12. Then Romania will have the most potent air force it is region!

Thank You.

Yes, for a period i picked info's from press. Dedicated one. From the moment of my first net acces, i used data from sites and forums. From time to time, i use boocks, when i have moeny and when i found boocks.

About IAR93 & co, i want to say just "a dedicated plane, is a dedicated plane". SOIM is a training plane with moderated options for fight. Dont tell me about electronics and new weapons option. 93 have more weapon load, and more speed. More 23 m.m. "tubes", etc. With some up-grades... i remember one of the first issues of "Top Gun Int. Romania" where a modernization program was presented. Canard, electronics, a new pilon for more load, etc. Too bad it was abandoned.

And, in a conflict scenario, you may think SOIM obtained some succes against SAMs? Or against AAMs? I think, a mobile AAA system is too much for SOIM. A 12,7 or a 14,5 mg is enough...

And LanceR? In Afganistan russian MiGs demonstrated enough...

In yugoslavian war ORAO (IAR 93) demostrated enogh...

Iama

I want to read, if exist, a conflict scenario with Czechia (?) and her pseudo - combat planes (armed training "L"s).

Maybe your post need some modification.

Rafale with SCALP, TORNADOs and some TIGERS. Some mobile SAM systems (russians), T-80 or 90... And in place of Type 42 (?) frigates, 4 Lupo / Artilegrie italian frigates. And selling DELFINUL to indians, chineses, or iranians (no - US dont let us...) and aquiring from Russia some small subs Pyranha. No?

Iama

Iamandi,
I agree that Dassault Rafales and Eurocopter Tigers would be would be excellent selections by the Romania Air Force, other stuff was a little off topic. The Romania Air Force could use some AWACS and In-Flight refueling aircraft and badly needs to replace the IAR-316 with modern eurocopter types.

Mabadesc,
While I respect your opinion, I must disagree with you. Age does matter, if it didn't why not simply keep the Lancers in service forever? After all they can always be upgraded and their are hundreds if not thousands of Mig-21's around the world that Romania could purchase dirt cheap and upgrade. The simple truth is that upgrade aircraft are more capable them they would otherwise be. They are still not as good as the latest generation of fighter aircraft are.

An F/A-18 would stand little chance in a Dogfight with a Eurofighter, JAS-39 Gripen or Rafale, no matter how much it was upgraded. The F/A-18 was deadly to 4 hapless Serbian Jestrabs and shot down 2 Iraqi Air Forces Mig-21MFs that were fleeing to Iran in the 1991 Gulf War. So it is capable fighter, just not in the same class or generation as the Eurofighter, JAS-39 or Rafale.

Thank you.

F/A 18 demonstrated a thing: what can do a sniper against some targets...

More good things make it ("18") in some books Keith Douglas (Carrier serie) and some Tom Clancy, and maybe other writers... and in war scenario of military training. But, in books readed by me, Hornet have a second place after Tomcats - maybe subjective ideeas of dog-fighting.

In manny publication, Jaguar have only nice words about his action on different conflicts. It is a good plane. And beautyful! I have some pics with AAMs on the upper side of the wings, Oman planes, flying above desert. Nice camo. India knows better why it choose this plane.

Iama