Danube Delta and the Ucrainean actions in Oct 2004

Hi,

I received an email with a kind of political update regarding Chilia area, Danube Delta and the Romanian-Ucrainean relations.

This information is:

ENGLISH VERSION
The Chilia arm of Danube River - Romanian part - was invaded by
Ukrainian ships who are working to enlarge their part.
Even if the arm is not open to international traffic, and Romanian
authorities did not accepted the violation of border in the name of
work for enlargement of the bank Bastroe b/w Periprava and Chilia the
Ukrainian trespassed.
The reason of the Ukrainians, is believed, is to have a water route
unwatched by Romania in the moment when our country will be accepted
in European Union and will become the inspector of all traffic on
Danube till Black Sea. They want Bastroe a route free of Romanian
checking - the specialists say.
Now Romanian armed ships are patrolling day and night ready to open
fire at any moment.

ROMANIAN VERSION

Apele teritoriale romanesti de pe bratul Chilia - pazite cu nave de
lupta

Romania a "fortificat" bratul fluvial Chilia. In urma cu cateva zile,
ucrainenii care lucreaza la canalul Bastroe au incercat, din nou, sa
intre in apele teritoriale romanesti. De aceasta data, insa,
politistii de frontiera au interceptat utilajele cu o nava de lupta
fluviala, iar dragele si barjele "vecinilor" au fost nevoite sa revina
in apele lor teritoriale. Conform unor surse din cadrul Ministerului
de Interne, masurile Politiei de Frontiera din Romania au continuat
prin aducerea unei adevarate flote in zona kilometrului fluvial 36,
intre Periprava si Chilia. Astfel, in apele noastre patruleaza, de
luni, patru nave de lupta - cu mitraliere grele la bord - si
aproximativ 20 de glisere si salupe care monitorizeaza zona. Ordinul
transmis de la Bucuresti este clar: "nici unui utilaj ucrainean nu i
se mai da voie sa intre in apele teritoriale ale Romaniei". Conform
ultimelor informatii, lucrarile la canalul Bastroe continua in zona
Periprava, dar numai in apele ucrainene. Aici, utilajele vecinilor
adancesc senalul astfel incat sa poata naviga si vasele maritime. Asta
in conditiile in care, prin regulamentul Comisiei Internationale a
Dunarii, Bratul Chilia nu este destinat traficului fluvial
international. Asa cum povestesc cei din zona Deltei Dunarii,
ucrainenii mai au un motiv pentru deschiderea lui "Bastroe": in
momentul in care Romania va deveni membru al Uniunii Europene, atunci
va avea obligatia sa monitorizeze absolut tot traficul pe Dunare,
dinspre Marea Neagra. "Iar Bastroe este o ruta pe care romanii nu o
pot controla fiindca este teritoriu ucrainean", mai spun specialistii.
Politistii care monitorizeaza canalul Bastroe spun ca traficul a
crescut aici si, in plus, au fost semnalate si vase sub alte
pavilioane decat cel al Ucrainei. Constructiile si modificarile albiei
fluviului sunt in desfasurare, astfel incalcandu-se si tratatul
bilateral care mentioneaza ca nici o tara nu poate face lucrari in
zona de frontiera decat cu aprobarea celeilalte. Reamintim ca in urma
cu cateva saptamani, in zona ostrovului Cernovca, utilajele ucrainiene
intrasera in apele teritoriale ale Romaniei pentru a lucra la canalul
Bastroe. Cu aceasta ocazie, "vecinii" mutasera si granita cu cateva
sute de metri. Lucrarile erau supravegheate - asa cum sustin acum
reprezentanti ai Politiei de Frontiera - de salupe ale granicerilor
ucraineni si chiar de nave de razboi echipate cu tunuri, iar
geamandurile de ancorare ale dragelor erau la cinci metri de malul
romanesc. La fel, balizele care delimiteaza senalul navigabil fusesera
impinse in apele romanesti, fara ca barcuta cu girofar in care erau
doi politisti de frontiera romani sa poata face ceva. In prezent, in
apele noastre se mai afla cinci balize mutate de ucraineni. Inainte de
a muta senalul navigabil, ucrainenii au cerut acordul Romaniei.
Autoritatile de la Bucuresti nu au fost de acord, insa, acest refuz nu
i-a impresionat pe "vecini". Acum, se duc tratative pentru ca balizele
sa fie retrase din apele Romaniei. In aceste conditii deputatii din
Comisia de administratie publica, amenajarea teritoriului si echilibru
ecologic au solicitat sa li se aprobe o deplasare pe Bratul Chilia,
pentru a se documenta la fata locului. Ioan Jelev, secretar de stat la
Ministerul Mediului - prezent la lucrarile comisiei - a declarat ca
lucrarile la canalul Bastroe continua, dar se deruleaza la un nivel
scazut. Jelev a a mai declarat ca studiul de impact pe problema
Bastroe va fi finalizat abia la sfarsitul lunii noiembrie! Ieri,
ucrainenii au mai facut o incercare. In jurul orei 16.00, un vas cu
pavilion galben-albastru a trecut pe senalul navigabil, in apropierea
unei nave romanesti de lupta. Ucrainenii sustin ca in acel moment
romanii au indreptat armele spre vasul lor, amenintand ca vor deschide
focul. Politia de Frontiera a infirmat acest fapt si a comunicat ca
vasul ucrainean s-a oprit in dreptul mitralierelor de pe nava
romaneasca, iar mai multe persoane au filmat armamentul. Surse din
cadrul IGPF ne-au precizat ca nava ucraineana nu a fost amenintata,
insa flota dispusa in zona Bratului Chilia nu va mai permite vaselor
care lucreaza la canalul Bastroe sa incalce apele teritoriale
romanesti.

*******

From far away, it is difficult to have the real feeling about what is going on in Chilia.
Few thoughts from the Forum members living in Romania would be interesting and useful.
Why Romania is not working diplomatically to get some backing from NATO and the European Union?

This post has been edited by Florin on October 20, 2004 12:50 am

Why Romania is not working diplomatically to get some backing from NATO and the European Union?


as part of the article 4, if i corectlly recall, in the nato "set of rulles".... Romania should be backed up... and the demand was made ... but the aswer was that: "this issue is strictly a meather of bilateral relations between the 2 countryes".

As the Americans used to joke here, about their everyday life:

"You are on your own, baby!"

Meaning: Don't even dream to hope for any help.

This post has been edited by Florin on October 20, 2004 01:21 am

This is why Romania needs s strong military, thinking we depend on NATO is joke. Even if NATO decides to help Romania, how much good will really help Romania. Remember all powerful NATO 78 days to beat down a hapless and isolated "Serbia." So what good would they be against the large and well equipped Ukrainians, my guess not much!

Romania needs stong enough to defend itself, buying JAS-39 Gripens and Jagaurs for the Romanian Air Force would be a great start. I'll bet the Ukraine would fear JAS-39 Gripen, sense the ROaf is heavy outnumbered by the Ukraf it needs to have superior aircraft.

Thank You

This is why Romania needs s strong military, thinking we depend on NATO is joke. Even if NATO decides to help Romania, how much good will really help Romania. Remember all powerful NATO 78 days to beat down a hapless and isolated "Serbia." So what good would they be against the large and well equipped Ukrainians, my guess not much!

...geez.... i believe some of us would wish an war.... but the q. is strictly diplomaticly, and at least morally some one could have done it... couse those are territorial romanian waters and the truth is on ower side... : )

This post has been edited by aerialls on October 20, 2004 08:30 am

aerialls,

No one wants a war, that is why I said that Romania needs stronger military. When you are strong aggressors think twice about attacking, however if are weak and seem unwilling to fight. You will notice the wolfs begin gathering around you. The best offense is a great defense, If have an effective military and you are not the aggressor, then you are less likely to have to go to war.

Thank you

Horryble thing! Is our frontier. It is a frontier of an independent country. This is an agression act! Is not only a romanian thing, it is an agrresive movement from a country against another. We are part of an alliance, and this not impresse nobody...
Why RO dont concentrate his monitors and armored boats in region to make some pressure? Why our LanceR and SOIM with CAS capabilty dont make flights for intimidation?

"Boss, the ukrainian guys ..."
"He-he-he, you, romanians its your fault! YOU EXISTS! Is too much for manny countrys!" and, "You are new commers. Entry level! He-he-he..."


Iama

Iama,
As I know, the Romanian armed ships belongs to border police (something like US Coast Guard). The border police have the right to make a border surveillance.
IMO a military action (like Danube Fleet patrolling or flights for intimidations) are not a good thing for Romania. The Ukrainians doesn't cross our border with military boats or ships. Only "civilian" ships cross Romanian border.
I think that firstly we have to action on diplomatic way (I heard about NATO about EU but nothing about UN!!!).
Dani

FARA DIPLOMATIE. Lucrarile propriu-zise au inceput pe 11 mai 2004. Potrivit prevederilor internationale era necesar un studiu de impact care sa evalueze cat mai exact consecintele. Acest studiu trebuie prezentat autoritatilor din statul vecin, impreuna cu care sa se gaseasca cea mai buna solutie pentru ca impactul de mediu si cel economic sa fie minime. Acesti pasi nu au fost repectati de ucraineni, care in 3 luni au inaugurat primul tronson. Mai mult, au inceput si dragarea bratului Chilia, ignorand toate protestele internationale si refuzand sa furnizeze informatii despre constructii.

PROTESTE. Lovindu-se de refuzul hotarat al Kievului de a respecta conventiile internationale, Romania a ales calea diplomatiei, incercand sa-i convinga pe ex-sovietici de necesitatea dialogului. Refuzati sau ignorati, diplomatii de la Bucuresti s-au adresat forurilor internationale, care le-au dat dreptate si au cerut Ucrainei sa stopeze lucrarile pana cand nu va prezenta studii amanuntite despre proiect. Au adresat proteste Ucrainei, Statelor Unite, cancelarului Germaniei, forurilor din Uniunea Europeana si organizatiilor ecologiste din toata lumea, inclusiv de la Kiev. Toate interventiile au ramas fara rezultat.

EFECTE. Potrivit expertilor romani, impactul pe care il are construirea canalului navigabil al ucrainenilor ar putea fi devastator pentru zona de la sudul bratului Chilia unde se afla, intre altele, padurea tropicala Letea, unica in Europa, sau zona Rosca-Buhaiova, unde traieste cea mai mare colonie de pelicani din Europa. Adancirea bratului Bistroe ar putea determina, in opinia specialistilor romani, o accelerare a cursului apei in regiune. Astfel, sursa de apa a padurii Letea va scadea simtitor, periclitand ireparabil arborii. Scaderea nivelului de apa din lacurile din Rosca-Buhaiova ar ameninta si coloniile de pelicani. Constructia ucrainenilor ar putea seca numeroase lacuri, canale sau incinte preferate de pasari pentru cuibarit sau de pesti pentru depunerea icrelor. Impactul poate fi comparat cu cel avut in urma cu un secol de construirea canalului Sulina: poluare, disparitia pestelui, disparitia pe o raza de 10 kilometri la nord si la sud de canal a oricarei populatii de pasari sau animale.

RAPORTUL DE 30 DE PAGINI. Ucrainenii au parut la sfarsitul lui iulie ca cedeaza presiunilor internationale si au prezentat un raport al activitatii de pe Bistroe. A fost insa un simplu foc de paie, “lucrarea stiintifica“ continand 30 de pagini de considerente incomplete, incorecte si referitoare doar la impactul local al construirii canalului. Savantii ucraineni au sustinut ca Delta nu va fi afectata decat strict in zona de constructie, desi este stiut ca acest lucru este imposibil. De asemenea, ucrainenii afirmau ca “nu conteaza daca se distrug unele specii rare sau protejate din zona Bistroe, pentru ca exista in toata Delta specii rare, chiar daca de cu totul alt tip decat cele care vor pieri“.

aerialls, when posting such quotes, post the source too.

Maybe that is his own work!

This is an useful wake up call about how much can be hoped and expected from the partnership with NATO. The daring and bold attitude of the Ukrainians in this matter shows that they understood something, something we still miss it somehow.

If I would be a Romanian politician in power today, I would explain to my NATO partners, very politely and with a lot of tact, that this matter may evolve to a level which may be perceived as a Romanian politic humiliation. Once that level is reached, one of the few ways out is to open fire to the Ukrainian vessels and working equipment which trespass the border.
If things evolve so far as to open fire against Ukrainian personnel, the NATO's political and diplomatic problems will be by far worse than a quiet and tactful involvement in this moment.

Even though, as the NATO representatives said, "this issue is strictly a matter of bilateral relations between the 2 countries", the eventuality of border skirmishes involving a NATO member will be the last thing to be desired, days before elections in the United States and with a heavy involvement in the Middle East. So those guys at Brussel should be more cooperative and receptive - I say. And the Romanian politicians should move to make them cooperative and receptive. A political stand now can be like a flu shot before getting the virus.

This post has been edited by Florin on October 20, 2004 11:30 pm

***deleted by admin***

This post has been edited by Victor on October 21, 2004 01:50 pm

Uhm, let's see if I got this right. The Ukranians sent a dredging barge to deepen the Chilia arm of the Danube River, and you're proposing to invoke the NATO treaty; fire on it with gun boat; or attack it with aircraft? This does seem like over-kill. Besides, there's not much glory in sinking a dredging barge.

I agree that if the Chilia arm is indeed Romanian, the Romanian government should object to the Ukranian actions (if the area is disputed, there are means of solving the dispute, including direct negotiation and/or mediation). But from what I understand of the situation, the Ukraine is not sending troops over to do this, so it seems to me that responding with military force is going over the top. I do believe that international law would permit the Romanian government to board and seize the barge if it was in Romanian waters.

I'll have to go find a good currnent map of the area to find out where all this is taking place.

Robert,

When a river is used as a border, that border passes through the middle of it.
It is the same situation between Germany and Poland (Oder River) and between the United States and Mexico (Rio Grande).

The Ukrainians are entering deep in the Romanian half of the river, and are moving the border floating signs in their favor. By digging that channel they lower the level of Danube, and change for worse the environment for big areas of Romanian land.

If diplomatic protests and warnings from international institutions do not stop Ukraine, what else would you do? Why we are buying all that scrap iron from the US and UK, as military equipment, if we do not dare to fire one shot when it is needed? What do we have in exchange of offering bases for NATO in Romania and for sending men in Iraq and Afghanistan?

Do I have a bad dream, or what? I hope I'll get awake in a better reality.

This post has been edited by Florin on October 21, 2004 04:46 am