Contemporary Wars

Hey, I was just trying to stir things up a bit, too quiet here lately

Not that it is such a difficult task

Two days after Mr Bush diplomatic trip , we get a TV broadcast showing what appears to be cold blood murder of a prisoner. The soldier was whitewashed. Oh shit, it didn't appear like self defense

This post has been edited by Chandernagore on February 24, 2005 08:14 pm

Please show me a war in which no prisoners were killed. I don't want to sound like I'm minimzing, but historically even with Abu G, this one must rank low on the number of dead POW's; in fact it's news when one is dead.
U wanna see dead prisoners, try Bosnia.
IMO, Gulf War I had the worst stuff; e.g. the "retreat" from Kuwait City which turned into a turkey shoot. And the sheer number of dead Iraqi soldiers is not something generally talked about now, but I think it was orders of magnitude greater than current war.

Re Bush/ Putin meeting in Slovakia. I'm revising my opinion of Putin a little. He looks to be taking a LOT of heat from HIS right, esp if he's seen as giving anything to Bush.
Seems they got some kind of, as u say, back channel thing done about security for Russian nukes.

I thought Bush did OK, for him....At least he's over there, talking and shaking hands with the French and Germans. How is he being portrayed in the mainstream media there? Is there a mainstream media there? (Here of course it's "all Michael Jackson, all the time") bad.
German cities where Bush was looked like ghost towns...that was wierd. Too bad he can't say "Ich bin ein Berliner" or "Mr Putin..tear down this wall" What could Bush say? maybe: "Geben mir einen division in dem Iraq, Herr Schroeder" haha fat chance.

I think the way they want it to shake out on Iran is Euros will offer the carrot, we Yanks will hit with the stick, as I heard it put.

stir on.

cheers.

saying that in every war there are civilian casualties is a poor excuse in my opinion. especially coming from a nation that got us fed up on all that democracy and human rights propaganda. putin at least is not trying to appear democratic. bush on the other hand is a murderer disguised as a president in a imperalist state disguised as a democracy. if we were to discuss the nuances , it can be easily proven why usa is no longer ( if it ever was) a democratic functional state. but this is not the place to do that. just wait until russia gets some wind beneath her wings. ther will be another imperialist power on the horizon. sadly for us, a crappy country caught in between. instead of speaking about the recent meeting in slovakia ( which in my opinion does not mean shit, it is just a photo oportunity) we might try to analize the true tendencies which are likely to emerge in the next 15 - 20 years.

- Russia a superpower once again

- China and india forming a pan-asian union with indonesia phillipines corea ( both of them if bush does his job properly) and all the rest. why not, the eu started getting crappy countries as well - romania

-rise of militant islamism and i do not mean the raggedy assholes blowing that are not even able to organise a good guerilla movement, but the organized and governmental way. need i remind u that in Turkey for the first time in ages there are religious figures in the government..

and so on...

Mention: "Aleksandr Nevskiy" (Borey Class) is on his way in near future

MOSCOW, January 28 (RIA Novosti) - In 2005, the Russian Navy will be supplied with two strategic nuclear-powered submarines "Yury Dolgoruky" and "Dmitry Donskoy" - this, i think is a Typhoon overhauled and up-graded with Bulava system - carrying on board the newest sea-based missiles systems "Bulava", says First Deputy Defense Minister Alexander Belousov.

"Allegations that all our technology is outdated do not hold water. The performance of our technology is not inferior to that in any other industrialized country," he added.

He also reported that the Russian armed forces are to adopt in 2005 a battalion of new T-90 tanks (40 pieces), two battalions of APC-80s (90 machines) and a battalion of BMP-3s (24 infantry combat vehicles). There are plans to buy two strategic bombers of the TU-160 type, two wings of the modernized SU-27 and a wing of MI-28M helicopters, said Belousov.

This year will also see a battalion of S-400 "Triumph" anti-aircraft missile launchers (six pieces) being put on combat duty, continued Belousiv.

The space troops are to accept nine new vehicles while the missile troops of strategic designation will be supplied with seven rockets and five rocket carriers.

In 2005, the Russian army's 29 units will be brought to strength on a contract-based scheme.

"First, the barracks will be refurbished to act as hostels and we have got a certain experience in doing this. Secondly, we shall build barracks of the boarding hotel type as well as premises for studies and training," said Belousov.

The first deputy defense minister reported about 20 units to assume a contract-based scheme in 2006 and 11 in 2007.


Iama

I will bite. What is a "Bulava system" ?

The 21st century way of being a super power is through economic means. Why conquer things when you can buy them ?

Bulava is a new type of solid fuel rocket with some nuclear heads (20 i think, MIRV) much more capable then Topol M. Putin loves his submarine force and give some moneys for them, and for arms on board of them.

Iama

But the war is long over, since the carrier landing more precisely. It cannot be Joe Haldeman's forever war .

I beg to disagree. The strafing attack on the retreating Iraki column was a war operation. It was a slaughter, but that's what war operations are about, uh ?

On the other hand, killing a incapacitated enemy fighter is the realm of psychopaths, not soldiers. Given that - after the invalidation of the original casus belli - the only thing left to justify the agression was some idealistic talk about replacing an Evil system with a Good one, I find this kind of event particularly disturbing. Granted you may summon the "bad apple" theory again and again, but how does it fit with the whitewashing by the whole military hierarchy ? If someone caught on video cannot be punished it raises the question "who can" ? What about whitewashing the perpetrators of the Malmedy killing the same way ? Would you approve ? "Hey, one of them moved his hand toward his pocket and we had no other choice than to machinegun 300 of them"

He did pretty well by concentrating the debate on what was left in common rather than the numerous disagreements. His effort must be saluted. But basically he didn't gave up one inch of ground nor compromise in any way on many important issues. I fear relations will not substantially improve.

If ever Turkey enters the EU we will have a physical frontier with Irak. Our common interest is a stable Irak.

I take it as a joke.

We were talking about POW's; prisoners of war, enemy combatants, not civilian casualties. (Chander 1st post, top pg 11 this thread)

I think that tape he mentions is couple months old; shows a stressed out G.I. shooting a disarmed injured enemy combatant.

He juxtaposed it against Bush's diplomatic mission. It seems to me another example of: damn Bush/America when it does (short circuits Euro diplomacy) and when it does not (Bush meets, trys make nice with Chirac, Schroeder and the ever cheerful Putin). So that was my response.

Civilian casualties r indefensible, wherever they occur. Unfortunately, since at least WWI, we know the civilian/soldier line is blurred nonexistent. I don't think the U.S went into Iraq TRYING to kill 100.000 civilians (one estimate). Unlike Sadamn who did , of course, killed Iraqi citizens with impunity, and, by some estimates, in higher numbers. (mass graves not uncommon there in his regime) I don't know if the poor bastards r any better off now, but I think there is hope they will be, unlike under that psycho.

"Bush is a murderer" is good graffiti, weak political discourse. U.S. is a democacy, last time I looked. Sure, big power groups battle for power, manipulate the electorate. What else is new?

I don't find the pan-asian scenario very likely. given the overpopulation pressures of China and India; they struggle just to keep their heads above water. Their demographics look grim to me. Not encouraging, imo, for the kind of ascendancy u seem to predict.

I don't see Russia a superpower again in my lifetime, nor in yours. For one thing, it's gonna take them 50 years to build an infrastructure; they r struggling to hang onto what little they have. U thinks roads r bad in Ro? They r nonexistent in huge stretches of a huge country. Also, demograpics again: this time, too FEW people. They spend all their time getting drunk instead of screwing.

Militant Muslims or Christian or Jews for that matter will not be viable in post industrial capitalism. Theocracies contain the seed of their own destruction. Some of the Israelis have figured this out. It may take the Arabs a while longer to. But dogmatic revealed religion will not be the basis for a competitve government/economic system. Unless we return to the Dark Ages..not an impossibility, given nukes.

cheers.

But the war is long over, since the carrier landing more precisely. It cannot be Joe Haldeman's forever war .

I beg to disagree. The strafing attack on the retreating Iraki column was a war operation. It was a slaughter, but that's what war operations are about, uh ?

On the other hand, killing a incapacitated enemy fighter is the realm of psychopaths, not soldiers. Given that - after the invalidation of the original casus belli - the only thing left to justify the agression was some idealistic talk about replacing an Evil system with a Good one, I find this kind of event particularly disturbing. Granted you may summon the "bad apple" theory again and again, but how does it fit with the whitewashing by the whole military hierarchy ? If someone caught on video cannot be punished it raises the question "who can" ? What about whitewashing the perpetrators of the Malmedy killing the same way ? Would you approve ? "Hey, one of them moved his hand toward his pocket and we had no other choice than to machinegun 300 of them"

He did pretty well by concentrating the debate on what was left in common rather than the numerous disagreements. His effort must be saluted. But basically he didn't gave up one inch of ground nor compromise in any way on many important issues. I fear relations will not substantially improve.

If ever Turkey enters the EU we will have a physical frontier with Irak. Our common interest is a stable Irak.

O.K., I take your point re military ops..yes, let's not mix apples/oranges.

Strafng retreating combatants does not equal summary execution, if that's what it was, of a POW.

The G.I. was or went psycho. U think he's the first/last soldier to do that? If it really was being whitewashed, we never would have seen the tape Give the U.S. military SOME credit..sure they try to cover their ass, but theyalso court martial people and punish the guilty ones. It's not an anarchic horde. It is probably the most professional and well organized group on the face of the planet.


But, depite Bush's infamous carrier landing ("Mission Accomplished..end of hostilities" I assume is your reference), this IS a war it IS going on..that sarcastic potshot was old even when Kerry used it. U know that.

Anyway...what the f...k does this have to do with B's diplomatic trip?

Yeah I agree the EU has, in Turkey specifically, a LOT more to lose from unstable Iraq. I don't know about u, but I sense a wind shift in U.S./Europe relations. I hope it's good one.

So what do u think? Putin gonna pull in his sails? Bush gonna have Chirac to the ranch for some Bar-B-Quuuuuu? Americans gonna be enjoying April in Paris and buying Renaults soon? haha

cheers.

Well... but precisely ... what kind of democracy is it ?

"We don't want to get rid of all liberals. I want to keep a couple, for example, on every major U.S. college campus so that we never forget who these people are."

-- Rush Limbaugh

The Rise of Pseudo Fascism §4 - The Apocalyptic One-Party State

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This post has been edited by Chandernagore on February 26, 2005 03:37 am

fat chance

ok well how about we all agree upon proclaiming usa the only superpower that ever was and ever will be and be done with it....because it seems it is impossible to imagine anything disturbing this state of affairs...

about the court martialing of SOME, yeah sure, they were the unlucky bastards who got picked to be thrown in the media cage. and that is it. the most shitty example is the rescue of that female us soldier who came home covered in glory ( after doing only one thing, getting caught by the iraqis) and now she is selling book rights and movie rights and she is a hero beyond belief...give me a break...do u not find sick the manipulation? let's not hide behind pretty words and say that every other big power would cover her ass the same. right. so since i am a big man it would be ok to go and beat the shit out of other people because other big men have done it and would do it again.

here in romania we barely hear news from iraq, however while the war was going on it was all over the news. while the us were winning anyway.sure they DEMOCRATICALLY elected some puppet to form a DEMOCRATIC rule of iraq. big deal, nobody buys that here ....

and about putin, i guess some of the forum members ive him very little credit and i do not know where that comes from. what made u think he is uncapable? the war in chechnya? check the news, Mashadov is begging putin for a ceasefire. the strategy in chechnya was flawed? oh no, i think it as perfect. russia never wanted to win that war, that would have been easy. they aimed at the complete anihilation of the chchens, kill all of them. do u know that now in Chechnya there are only spetsnaz troops with open season on those deemed as terrorists? they get about 10-20 each day, shoot them like rabbits. why do u think Mashadov is shaking in his shoes? i give him 6 months at the most before the Alfas ( best damn unit in the world IMO) get them.

putin fucked the economy? check the numbers, the economy is growing, debts are starting to get paid. he fucked all the oligarchs, crime has gone don in moscow at least...

i kinda fail to see the incompetence of putin...

No, you would do it because you can. The fact that others did it before with impunity, helps relieve the guilty conscience of some of your "girlish" knuckles suddenly turned into compasionate jelly.

So. Irak and Chechnya... Like, the conclusion is that imperialism rulez!
Like it always has and it always will. You cannot change human nature no matter how much you try... Stop crying about it. [friendly tone]