Contemporary Wars

i grew up during ceausescu too. but i was wiser then. i was only 7 years old

In the last 30 years all they did was to leave the big cities and to seek refuge into suburbs. Well, when there will be no place left to seek for refuge, so in a way they will be cornered to a "dead end", maybe we would see some less cowardly actions.

yes, I agree.

Enduring Freedom


Source: Dutch Ministry of Defence


"The Netherlands is to contribute 250 troops to Operation Enduring Freedom, the international operation against terrorism in Afghanistan.

It will send 165 members of a Special Forces taskforce and 85 members of a helicopter detachment plus four Chinook transport helicopters.

The Special Forces troops will conduct reconnaissance and gather information. They may also engage in combat.

The mission entails high risks, which the Government finds acceptable in view of the mission's importance. "

So, in future on Internet we may download pictures or / and movies with dutch civils in hand of Al Qaeda & Co. and the message who will kindly ask Holland to retreat his commandos..

Iama

Not only the freedom is enduring but also the projected length of the war :

Sure, we’ve been in Korea since the 1950’s, almost a half century and we’ve been in Germany since 1945 and we’ve been in Japan. The American people have shown they are willing to station troops overseas but they haven’t shown they are willing to conduct a 50 year counter-insurgency. In fact, Vietnam lasted ten years and what we ran out of there was time. The American people ran out of patience. Marshall said that no democracy can fight a ten year war. I’m not sure he’s accurate but the fuse started burning on Vietnam after Walter Cronkite came back from visiting and said ‘your government is not telling you the truth about what is going on.’

Our government has not been telling us the truth about what is going on in Iraq since before it even started so the question is, how long will it take somebody like Walter Cronkite who is trusted by the American people to put his hand up and say, ‘this is baloney, you guys are being fed baloney.’ My judgment is that it will take something like a decade and so we are only a couple of years into this thing and if we have to wait for the American people to run out of patience, it will be a while.

General McPeak

...and also the projected length of the occupation (a concept which might really equal to war in this case)

Almost everyone accepts that the original rational for the war was nonsense. By the way that’s not hindsight on my part. I wrote articles about it and said so in print that Iraq doesn’t possess any weapons of mass destruction. And that there is no connection between Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden. That was very obvious to any thinking person.

These were phony objectives to begin with and therefore not achievable. So we should not say now there is no way we will achieve those objective because they were phony objectives to begin with.

You could construct a sort of empire like a “pax Americana” scenario which I think some of the neocons really had in mind. We are building bases in Iraq, not just one or two but in substantial numbers and we are spending a lot of money there. It could be argued that someone wants us to be there fore a long time. These are not temporary or provisional. They are not being made out of plastic. So you could see that we intend to be in Iraq for 50 years. These are permanent bases.

If you buy into that then you could make an argument that the sacrifices are worth it because we are now going to control the Middle East. If that is your rationale then what they’re doing makes sense. But it can be argued that we shouldn’t be doing this.

General McPeak

It can be argued, indeed.

This post has been edited by Chandernagore on March 02, 2005 10:24 am

Can we identify our sources, please? If u did, I missed it, sorry.

IMO, McPeak is an articulate, experienced and thoughtful guy. But his may not be the majority view, even that of civilians.

"General Tony McPeak is a retired four star general who was the head of the U.S. Air Force under President GHW Bush during Operation Desert Storm. " (tons more on Google, of course.) http://www.opednews.com/goodenVanHorn_1003...can_general.htm

U might also want to say he campaigned for Kerry. In case u haven't been reading the papers, Kerry lost the election.

At the very least, that may mean that we have a ways to go b4 the "Vietnam syndrome" takes full hold. IMO, the Vietnam analogy, constantly trotted out by both sides here, is a bad one.

My sense is that even in the "heartland" people r plenty fed up wth Iraq, but of course "support the troops" mightily. If that sounds contradictory, it is. Very few people (if any) will say anything bad about the military here....unlike in Vietnam era, when the military was distrusted and hated by many.

Events are moving quickly, and in surprising direction. imo. The Palestinian election, of course the Iraqi elections, a crack in the Egyptian monarchy!!!!!!, and now, Syria's backfire in Lebanon and their "loss" of that government. And, horror of horrors, the French are getting into bed with the U.S. re Syria in Lebanon!!!


R u prepared to ignore these events in order to sustain your apparent thesis that U.S. invasion/ocupation Iraq is all wrong all the time? I think something fundamental changing is in the wind. If I were, e.g., a Saudi prince, I'd be keeping my bags packed, near the door.

Won't it be funny if the neocons have unleashed something even THEY can't predict/control? Guess we'll have to wait and see.

cheers.

Indeed, there is something in the air and its foul... The Romanian President announced that he favours preventive actions and plans to change Romania's NSS accordingly.
Thats a good laugh! Romania and preventive action... Haha.

You spend a lot of energy firing to the left, right, above, behind and beyond the target.

The only thing you do not adress is General McPeak's main point : is the US military poised to base long term in Irak as part of a deliberate strategy ?

So I m' not looking to support a thesis but answer a genuine, important question, which is not clear at all for many people. After all the US military is there close to 2 years. Elections have happened and no sign of withdrawal.

Wether General mcPeak vote for Kerry, was gay, was fond of apple pies or had respiratory problems I don't care

Well I'm not sure the neocons have ever managed to predict/controll anything in their foreign policy, so...

This post has been edited by Chandernagore on March 04, 2005 04:01 pm

If general McPeak's persona wouldn't have been of interest (like, say, his military rank) for you, you would have simply taken his points and re-iterated them for the Nth time that I remember. However you felt his persona was significant (see the repeated mention of his military rank), so cnflyboy2000 made the next logical step and provided further insight into general McPeak's political orientation and interests - which you forgot to mention. You also forgot to mention that general McPeak is retired from active service - a point worth emphasizing.

Furthermore: of course the long term presence of the US armed forces in the ME is a deliberate strategy. Unlike John Kerry's highly nuanced, European-like geostrategic mind, it would appear that Bush's two alternatively firing neurons understand that long-term success needs long-term efforts. So what's wrong with that? Are the dictators in the region complaining about the heat, dear? Turn it on further, mr. Bush!

Democracy: made in the USA, loved and cherished worldwide!

Attached Image

"But I believe that a lot of people will agree with me, the implementation of the principles and norms of democracy should not be accompanied by the collapse of the state and the impoverishment of the people.
We believe, and I personally believe, that the implementation and the strengthening of democracy on the Russian soil should not jeopardize the concept of democracy. It should strengthen statehood and it should improve living standards for the people. It is in this direction that we're going to act."

"I'm absolutely confident that democracy is not anarchy. It is not a possibility to do anything you want. It is not the possibility for anyone to rob your own people."

-- Vladimir Putin, February 24 2005, Slovenia --

The only point that I could yet emphasize is the usual character assassination awaiting anyone who dares to contradict King Bush. A neocon national sport. To be proud of.

Oh ? So as long as you have long term goals there cannot be anything wrong with it ? You could as well root for Ben Laden my dear, his kind are also making long term efforts.

It depends wether the dictators are friends protected by the US or not and wethere they have oil or not, Dear.

Talk about self delusion. Time to update your system, dear.

100% American exceptionalism

This post has been edited by Chandernagore on March 04, 2005 10:01 pm

Careful Chandernagore, talking bad about NATO and the US is a felony. Courtesy of democracy made in America.
Ofcourse, if you'd preferr democracy made in Taiwan, then talking bad about Taiwan would be a no go area too.
Thats why some would say that when democracy is made somewhere and imported elsewhere its quality tends to suffer. Some other crazies would say the same thing happened when some other country this century started to export expired worker's democracy. Talk about loonies...

take care

Turning the corner 2003-2012

This post has been edited by Chandernagore on March 05, 2005 10:29 am

You brought up the ad verecundiam argument, so it's quite natural to see who and what the verecundius is. You call that "character assasination"? I find that funny. Did someone libel or otherwise mischaracterized or misrepresented the life and deeds of mr. USAF Gen. (ret.) Tony McPeak? I think not. So please refrain from libeling us, mister.

Ahhh, the long-awaited Bush-Bin Laden analogy. It took you a while to remember it. Do I think it shines a favorable light on your rhetorical skills? I do not, sorry, and moreover I think it's quite preposterous and laughable.

Mmm. So Bashar al-Assad and Hosni Mubarak are now oil sheiks? And I thought the people in the streets of Beirut and Cairo were locals, not US marines! So there's some news I must have missed. Or are you refering to the fact that the Saudis have recently announced that for the first time, at some point in the near future, they'll allow women to vote? That must have been a low one from Bush, and I sincerely understand your frustrations about that. Just think of it, women to have equal decision power with men! Maybe they'll go as far as to restrict the husband's right to kill or physically punish for disobedience his lawful wives! That would be pure blasphemy! Allah, have mercy!

Talk about self delusion. Time to update your system, dear.

Uh, unless I am mistaken, monsieur Valery Giscard d'Estaing, the "spiritual father" of the EU Constitution, was lately heard bragging he's Europe's Jefferson. That kinda sorta seems like not-too-tacit an admission that modern democracy was invented in the USA, don't it, mate? Feel free to try and pull a character assasination scheme on mr. d'Estaing, mate.

Felony? Are you even remotely familiar with the significance of the word? If so, in what country is that situation possible? I trust you can't be possibly talking about Romania, can you?
And about the analogy between E Europe post WW II "workers' democracies" and the Iraqi democracy, the only point I could think of that they may have in common is that Saddam looks certain to be hung by the neck until he dies (or whatever else way of carrying out the death penalty they may have in Iraq now), for mass killing hundreds of thousands of its own citizens. Just like you-know-who did during WW II. In that aspect, I think the analogy is perfect. Otherwise, not: you-know-who didn't benefit from the compassion and PR and legal support of entire international political movements and/or countries, like Saddam jolly does now.

This post has been edited by valachus on March 05, 2005 12:00 pm

Yeah, yeah, they are locals as the bessarabian folks interviewed in downtown Kiev during the orange revolution saying they came there because the food is good and they are given new clothes... Haha. That surely redefines the term local.
As for US marines, come on... I never heard of covert ops in uniform. Then again what am I saying - US, covert ops. Blasphemy!