Contemporary Wars

Why? Who needs a military dictatorship masquerading as a government?

And anyway... What's Rummy supposed to say? "thanks a lot....for nothing, Turkey. Please bend over so I can kiss your butt..... Oh and by the way, please let us know when the Islamists totally control your country, so we can send some flowers." ???

I don't think so.

well aparently the turks do....
don't tell me that you think democracy is needed eveywhere on this planet

Democracy is no panacea for the world's ills, but show me something better, please.
(anarchy? where r u when we need u Alex?)

I prefer representative govt. over the Turkish system: military heavyweights pulling strings backstage and staging an occaisional coup when the puppets get too out of line. (1997 only the most recent in that long tradition).

Why should Rummy suck up to them?; let them be pissed off, imo. that's all I'm saying.

The PAC-3 is already capable of ABM, and was/is already sought by Taiwan, Japan, South Korea and India. I think excepting India and Taiwan, all the others got it.
The fact thats AA makes it highly "liked", although Russian tech is also capable of that.

take care

O.K. but in response to Chander's original query, I guess the answer is that even the beta Patriot was not, strictly speaking, "a piece of crap".
However, he heard correctly that it's expensive: $91 MILLION per "unit". damn....

Why? Who needs a military dictatorship masquerading as a government?

And anyway... What's Rummy supposed to say? "thanks a lot....for nothing, Turkey. Please bend over so I can kiss your butt..... Oh and by the way, please let us know when the Islamists totally control your country, so we can send some flowers." ???

I don't think so.

well aparently the turks do....
don't tell me that you think democracy is needed eveywhere on this planet

Democracy is no panacea for the world's ills, but show me something better, please.
(anarchy? where r u when we need u Alex?)

I prefer representative govt. over the Turkish system: military heavyweights pulling strings backstage and staging an occaisional coup when the puppets get too out of line. (1997 only the most recent in that long tradition).

Why should Rummy suck up to them?; let them be pissed off, imo. that's all I'm saying.

i agree to some point to him being pissed. it is the same feeling a 400 pound sumo wrestler would experiance if put to watch 20 kindergarden kids. to be listened to he would eventually have to use force. the problem is he might do more damage that he intended and get beaten up by an alliance of the less powerfull but many parents...

This post has been edited by Indrid on March 24, 2005 07:22 am

Pakistan gets its F-16s, India gets co-production of F18s...

Who's got the upper hand? Obviously India. Pakistani pressure on Musharraf likely to increase.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/article...590,curpg-1.cms

This post has been edited by Imperialist on March 25, 2005 06:06 pm

Nice thing here:

"One official said that the United States has had to adapt to the reality that both countries have a nuclear capability.

"The U.S. has to live in the world that exists, not the world we wish" exists, the official said. He added that the United States is trying to create a "positive force" and defuse tensions in a potentially dangerous region."

And more..

"Crucial region in terror war
The sale to both countries is part of a new U.S. strategy for South Asia, a region the United States sees as vital to U.S. national security interests and crucial to the war on terror."

Look what type of new strategy had USA... If you had two fire, put some fuel on both of them, why to use water? And i don't understand the second part of this fragment - seems like USA sells fighter to both countryes, and in future, Pakistan and India can forget all and join US in fight (US one) agaisnt terror in that region? Well, if you see 2 guys who fight with words, give them knifes. This will make peace between this guys!!!


"A senior administration official said that the Bush administration will continue to broaden its relationship with India.

Secretary of State Condoleeza Rice, in India last week, told Prime Minister Singh that the United States will help India become a major world power in the 21st century."

Why they want this? Because, India want Indian Ocean to be a "personal" lake.. They will provide India weapons, like to Iraq? And at right momment....


"The official said that United States will allow U.S. companies to bid for contracts to provide F-16 fighter jets to India and additional defense technology, such as command and control and early warning systems.

The United States will also beef up its economic, energy and trade ties with India, the official said.

Indian Prime Minister Singh has already accepted an invitation from Bush to visit the White House in July, and the president plans to visit India sometime within the next year, an official said.

Officials said they do not see the sale to either country as tilting the military balance between India and Pakistan. Although officials would not talk specific numbers for the sales, India is shopping for 125 aircraft. Pakistan has had a long-standing request for 25.

However, these officials said, the sale could increase Pakistan's security with India at a time of improved relations between the two countries.

"It is important for the Pakistani government feel secure," one official said. "It is in India's interest that Pakistan feel secure.""

Hehehehehheheheeh! Hihihihihihihi! 125 to 25.. Hey, don't wory! It is important to you, pakistani guys, to feel secure! hehehe....




Iama - Source is http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/03/25/jet.sale/

I bet that was Rumsfeld speaking......

India and Pakistan are long into the fight, and fighting with words is long over. Giving them knifes today is all about the money and military dependance, not about picking sides or giving advantages to one or the other.
US is glad to take Russia and China out of the military sales picture, so selling tech to both Pak and India is only natural. The arms race could be very profitable if both countries compete with tech from the same seller.

Dont worry, thats diplomatic speak...

The message you quoted actually means -- $ecure $ecure $ecure $ $ $

The Pakistanis are highly satisfied they finally got their F16s, though only 25. It means a lot for them.


take care

Because, F-16 are good tools to trow mass destruction weapon (nuclear one) above India, in a combinated attack with missiles. Thats remind me by a book from Carrier serie... A war in Indian Ocean region, joint action between an US Task Force and a russian one, against India, and at the end a pakistani F-16 nuclear strike shot downed by AIM 54 Phoenix from US F-14 Tomcat. Another episode where USS Thomas Jefferson was victorious, the best pacemaking tool of gendarme of the world - Unisted States of America. And a bad cooperation between good old americans and newest good actor - Russia.

Iama

Interesting scenario. Sounds a little far fetched at the moment, maybe... cheers

Actually, it seems that 25 is not the actual number.
No number was set as a limit, and the Pakistanis are expected to request 70, as apparently that would satisfy their needs.
The 25 number was the old Pakistani request left unanswered until recently. When the US announced it would sell F16s to Pakistani everybody jumped on that 25 number, but it seems its better!!!

take care

If i remember right, Pakistan whant fiets time some like 70 F-16 planes, years ago. I don't undertand why India whants F-16? They have a rainbow of military planes.. It is a collector thing? After that, maybe they will try some Tornado? Let's not forget about Iraq experienece, when his "rainbow" of military toys were useless because of lack of spare parts, after a six months embargo...

And, what kind of Vipers will USA sell to Pakistan and India? Second hand ones? What type of "Block"? I don't find nothing, yet.

From what i read, India want to put F-16 in place of MiG-21.. Why they don't replace 21 with LCA? I don't catch were is the logic here...

Iama

Pakistan will get Block 52, while India will buy Block 60 or accept Lockheed Martin's offer of buying a custom-built Block 70.

Pakistan will first get a batch of 24 F16s, but it wants to buy another 70 so as to have around 100 F16s, as it seems that its infrastructure is ready to accomodate that number (Pakistan was ready to buy F16s long time ago but it was later politically denied).
Moreover, Pakistan already has a number (some say 40) of Block 15 F16s which will be upgraded by the US in the same deal.

As for India, it remains to be seen what it buys. F/A-18 E/F and/or F16s... or they're just testing the waters and exploring their possibilities.



take care

U.S. Forces May Have Beaten Iraqi General

By ROBERT WELLER
FORT CARSON, Colo. (AP) - Previously secret court testimony indicates an Iraqi general imprisoned by U.S. forces was badly bruised and may have been severely beaten two days before he died of suffocation during interrogation.

References to the alleged beating appear in a transcript, released under court order, from a military preliminary hearing for three soldiers charged with murder and dereliction of duty in the death of Maj. Gen. Abed Mowhoush on Nov. 26, 2003. A fourth soldier faces the same charges but waived a hearing.

During the interrogation, Army prosecutors claim Mowhoush was put headfirst into a sleeping bag, wrapped with electrical cord and knocked down before the soldiers sat and stood on him, prosecutors said. The cause of death was determined to be suffocation.

The defendants - Chief Warrant Officers Lewis Welshofer and Jefferson Williams, Sgt. 1st Class William Sommer and Spc. Jerry Loper - have all denied wrongdoing, saying commanders had sanctioned their actions.
According to the transcript, witnesses said others had also beaten Mowhoush days before the Army interrogation. Their names and agencies were blacked out.
Col. David A. Teeples, the men's commander, said during the closed hearing: ``My thought was that the death of Mowhoush was brought about by .... (blacked out) and then it was unfortunate and accidental, what had happened under an interrogation by our people.''
According to the transcript, Army special investigator Curtis Ryan testified that he found extensive bruising when he examined Mowhoush shortly after he died. ``So, at some point prior to the 26th, he had been beaten,'' Ryan said.
An autopsy revealed that Mowhoush had also suffered broken ribs, testimony showed.

The military closed the hearing to the public shortly after it began in December, but The Denver Post successfully sued to open it, and the proceeding concluded this past week in open court. The transcript was released Thursday and posted on the Internet.

Fort Carson's commander, Maj. Gen. Robert Mixon, will decide whether the soldiers are court-martialed, after he receives a recommendation from the investigating officer, Capt. Robert Ayers. No timetable was set.

04/02/05 23:22
Source: Associated Press

This post has been edited by Florin on April 03, 2005 05:10 pm

About India,from what i know,have an important russian made air fleet,with a lot of MIG`s(including MIG 29)and modern SU 30.And a program for a long range missile,"Surya"(it supose have a range about 12 000km,but is a little hard to believe),who is far away better than all pakistanese missiles,and can threat China(it seems they rennounce for the moment to develope this rocket,under US presion).BTW,who knows about chino-indian war?

No, "Surya" is a legend, and both India and Pakistan have missiles with close range limits, around 2,000-2,500 Km.
Ofcourse India has the theoretical upper-hand because it can cover all of Pakistan with missiles, while Pak still needs longer ranges to cover all of India.

What about the china-india war?

And have some space experience.

Anyone knows about some planned Indian Jaguar up-grade? In Europe were some plans - engines from Tornado, a small thing with EJ-2000 engine... realised electronics up grade, but from India side was some up grades, or is planned something?

Iama