Contemporary Wars

Abut chino-indian war,i know was some clashes betwen this two giants,in Tibet,if i remeber corectly,but i want to know more about this,if somebady know

Abut chino-indian war,i know was some clashes betwen this two giants,in Tibet,if i remeber corectly,but i want to know more about this,if somebady know

The war left two large disputed areas: Arunachal Pradesh (souteast of Tibet) and Aksai Chin (west of Tibet).
The latter is contiguous with Jammu and Kashmir, and the 1962 war marked the chinese involvement in the Pakistani-Indian disputes for Kashmir, on the side of Pakistan.

Why dont you make a research if you want to know more? You would surely find out more than asking on the forum.
Here we can discuss that war, if you want.

All I can say is that the China-India war is a classic example of how the mismanagement of a border dispute leads to war and how any building projects on the border, left to reach the fait accompli stage, later have tremendous strategic consequences and make very difficuly any effort to reestablish the status-quo.

It should have been treated as a case study in our political sciences faculties, but ideological stuff is far more appealing, unfortunately...

From another forum, i have this:

"According to Phoenix TV, as soon as the Europeans lift the arms ban, China will buy 210 Mirage 2000-9cs jet fighters from France (at a cost of $12 Billion Euros).

Delivery starts (first batch of 30) at the end of 2006. In June 2005, 40 Chinese pilots will travel to France to receive training.

The link for the article is here:
www.phoenixtv.com/phoenix...3263.shtml

How capable is the Mirage 2000-9cs (compared to the American F16s)? What are the implications for the existing domestic development programs? -- Namely the J-10? "

Anyone knows something about that? Unfortunately, this link is to a page in chinese...

Iama

Maybe thats a rumour, because otherwise it would have made the headlines in a very unpleasant way for the French.

Also, Iama, what the hell is the 9cs?? I never heard of it.

This post has been edited by Imperialist on April 13, 2005 01:01 pm

I bet is not a Mirage 2000 for Counter Strike ! Maybe can be an Chinesse "Cs" variant of 2000-9? But, this can be a chinesse type of lyes.. I remember about example of Photoshop made J-10 with parts from images containing Eurofighter or Grippen...

Maybe in future we will see the true.

Iama

I agree that it's a classic example of mismanagement of a border dispute. It always seemed distinctive to me for two other reasons:

1. The incredibly hostile terrain the fighting was conducted in. Yes, it's not the highest part of the Himalayas, but it's bad enough. Just supplying the troops would be a nightmare.

2. How pointless it all seems to an outsider. At least the Kashmir dispute is over valuable territory. Aside from losing military prestige, what did India lose when it lost this land to China? Natural resources? Living space? Vital defensive terrain? Hardly. At the same time what has China gained by pushing beyond the historically accepted border? Although they have some of the territory they claim, I believe they pay a diplomatic price and gain sympathy for India. In the long run, this may cost them more than anything they have gained.

For China Aksai Chin was far more important than for India.
By winning the war and retaining Aksai Chin, China maintained firm control over Tibet and Xinjiang.
As for Arunachal Pradesh, we can see it dominates the Brahmaputra valley in the Assam province.
For India, the loss of Aksai Chin was to be important because of its contiguity with Jammu&Kashmir and the later Pak-China cooperation.

If we look at the map, Tibet is no small fry, at least in size.
Obviously India's biggest mistake was to allow Tibet, a buffer state, to be absorbed by China, shortly after Xinjiang.

I think the war was a good coordinated and determined effort by the Chinese. They put a lot of pressure on a sleepy India.

As for the border dispute management issues, the way in which India mismanaged the dispute and the diplomatic relation with China reminds me of the Romanian similar errors with a determined Ukraine.

take care

Indeed. But the Chinese had the advantage of building a lot of strategic roads before the war actually started and before India woke up.
In fact, the Indians are actually grateful for the 1962 war, because it woke them up in punches, and they were sober enough to face their 1965 war with Pakistan. Which indeed, they regarded as being more important than the war with China.
However, we cannot say that the 1962 war didnt have a major consequence on India. The threat from China and Pakistan exposed India's very long border and forced her to face a wider technological competition.

Regarding to the recently news with F-16 and F-18 (possible) future deals, I want to say some words.

F-16 – Why India wants this plane?

- Because had the capability to use tactical nuclear bombs? They already had Jaguar, who is also capable to do that.
- Because Pakistan will acquire F-16? From when is that a concept – if your adversary had one type of weapon, 100 % is logic to use the same one to fight with? Whatever Pakistan will buy – not F – 22, or JSF, India will oppose a larger number of planes, including MiG-29 and Su-30 MKI. (Where flew in panic those F-16? I don’t seem them anymore.. )
- Because Pakistan will fight with FC-1? No way! India will up grade all of her MiG-21 to LanceR (or appropriate, with Israel), or to MiG-21-2000 (or appropriate, with Russia). It will be cheaper to do that.
- Because they want to have a rainbow of military technology? I have doubts. They are no fools, they have experience of short wars from time to time – something like an Asian way to do what USA and some NATO countries make in other parts of the world, also Russia do in her region… Israel (why not?)… some testing of military power with all means that. Certainly they concluded after that what means to have a technological rainbow, and after that had contracts to assimilate technology, domestically made, with small steps at beginning, with more success now. Let’s not forget about HAL, and helicopters and planes produced there. They made research and made some impressive things, for example “stealth” for planes (Jaguar had 70% reduction in radar cross-section (RCS) for a 110 lb (50 kg) weight penalty).
- Because LCA is not so good? I doubt, again. LCA will send to retirement all MiG’s – not the 29, of course. But, the LCA production it will be not so fast for the first years to come.

So, why they want F-16? Because USA will supplementary help India to change his inventory of falling MiGs. LCA and F-16 batches will reduce the time needed by India to became more powerful, with new planes. And, I bet Israel will do money again, in shadow of the USA with this deal. You know what I mean…


F-18

India wants more power in Indian Ocean. They will use F-18 to extend power projection above the Indian Ocean. Jaguar/Shamsher and F-18 above Ocean, combined with Harriers and MiG-29K from carriers will be a scary combination. New missiles to be used against ship - superior speed than other models, more resistant to ECM.. again a scary thing.

I think they will buy both F-16 and F-18, with a lot of ammo, including capable missiles like AMRAAMs, Harpoons, GBUs, anti radiation and long range weapons like Scalp or US made ones, submunition dispersors.
India with real BVR power will be hard to defeat.

Why a country accelerate his arming course? Well, I don’t know…


Iama

Why not? Especially if you can afford more of them, besides other types.

India already has an upgraded Mig21. And its time to go for him, along with some Mig23s... Thats why they need those 126 replacement fighters.

Maybe, if their plans to build 2 carriers by 2010 become reality.

Lets wait and see... It all seems to have been a mere market study thing. The Indians are comparing offers, be it Russian or US, but the decision is still to be made.
And the Americans will think about it real good, because a lot of politics is involved in the region...

This post has been edited by Imperialist on April 18, 2005 12:06 pm

http://www.nation.com.pk/daily/apr-2005/13/index12.php

At this link they say US offers Pakistan F-16s upgradation, for those planes already in service.
But Pakistan, in case of war against India, needs a lot of power. And they are involved with China in a programe for a fighter a little bit better than an LanceR or 21-2000. Cheap solution. And one forced by arms embargo from US (F-16) in past.
I think is better for Pak. to go for russian MiG-31, enough for 4 squadrons, S-300 or superior, mobile SAM launcers - again from Russia, and that and all they had now, and thos cheap chinese fighters will be enough to defend in face of India.

Iama

Imperialist, related to your quotes, i say:

1.

India can afford better planes than F-16. This was the ideea. And, if he can, is ideal to buy better planes then his "enemy".

2.

Yes. But i say: " Because Pakistan will fight with FC-1? No way! India will up grade all of her MiG-21 to LanceR (or appropriate, with Israel), or to MiG-21-2000 (or appropriate, with Russia). It will be cheaper to do that."

So, here i want to say just... Up graded Fishbeds, or Floggers are enough to counter FC-1. And this is cheaper. FC-1 is not a suficient motivation to go to F-16, and with that i jump to another eplanation for India possible contract for F-16.

3.

I think is too much for India. A carrier is a carrier. A verry complex combination of complex things. Maybe, if may found France, or Russia to build and project those carriers.

Returning to my ideeas - F-18 combined with Jaguars will project more power in Indian Ocean, from shore bases. Limited range, but with aerial refueling systems they can do more with both type of planes above water. Sure, is not like 3-4 carriers with MiGs, SUs, and Hornets, but it is MORE than now.


For the 4'th of your quote, is not necesarry to comment anything.

Iama

Iama, India has upgraded Mig21s, the Mig21s Bison.
And they wont upgrade them again, they're gonna buy something new.

India already has a carrier; it has bought another one from Russia, a second hand one, and currently they are refurbishing it; and India will start building another carrier from scratch, in October 2005, with an Italian firm.

So, India will have 3 carriers by the next decade.

The land bases for naval aircrafts are in:

- Mumbai
- Dabolim on the Arabian Sea
- Cochin on the Laccadive Sea
- Vishakhapatnam somewhat near the Bay of Bengal
- Arakkonam (also on the East coast)
- Port Blair on the Andaman Sea

They have mostly helicopters and propeller planes and bombers, and the only jet fighters they are planning to use are Mig29s. As they plan to do on their carriers.

Iama, like I said, unless there breaking news, the only US F16 deal in the region is with Pakistan. No contract with India for F16s or F18s. It was either an attempt to calm the Indian public, or just an Indian request to see what and at what price the US is willing to offer...

This post has been edited by Imperialist on April 19, 2005 11:54 am

Bison is enough to beat FC-1 or whatever name had that plane. Bison had R - 77 Adder in his arsenal.

Is hard for India to make a project of a new carrier and to built it from zero. Alone. What you say, about cooperation with an italyan firm and re-building of one carrier from scratch is more real/easy to India to do that.
China make study for carriers from some time and on some ships (ex. Variag, if i remember right), and they don't have one yet. Are rumors about an secret build of a chinesse carrier. And, China had a larger military budget..
Maybe India will have more succes, based on her experience with carriers.

We will see what can reserve the future.

Iama

I take your word for it, cause I dont know much about this FC-1...

However, we have to keep in mind that India's tech purchases are not conditioned only by Pakistan's capabilities.