Modern Romanian Army...

[PanzerKing]

Does anyone have any good info about the modern army? How bid is the navy and air force? How big is the standing army (divisions)? What are some recent or overlooked conflicts involving Romania (besides Afghanistan).

What are the main aircraft of the airforce, what about navy, do you guys have any battleships or carriers? I already know about the upgraded super kick ass T-55s, but how are they organized, for example, how many armored divisions are there on peace time?

Thanks a million, I know there's a load of questions, any info is appreciated.

PS- Is war with Hungary ever a possibility or is it in the past?

[Geto-Dacul]

To answer a little bit your question, PanzerKing... The actual army is the shadow of the Socialist Army of before 1989.... The Army's situation is very close to that of 1940; we have some tanks, but outdated... Actually, when you see armor with Romanian soldiers, you generally see TABS (a kind of SPW's armored cars - transportoare blindate)... The Army's size and power was drastically reduced more for foreign interests (like entering NATO and other bla blas), to make a small, but "professional" army... No more comments! :cry:

The Army's situation in 1999, from Calin Hentea, ARMATA SI LUPTELE ROMANILOR, Nemira, 2002, page 250-51 :

For a population of 23 million (actually LESS), and size of 238 391 sq.km., Romania disposed at the beginning of 1999 of an army formed of 178.000 men, from it 40.000 being civilians. The perspective for 2005 is 112.000 men and 28.000 civilians.

Equipment :
1254 tanks (1843 tanks in 1996)
2100 armored vehicles
1291 artillery pieces beyond 100mm
2000 radio stations
9 systems of defense with missiles
341 combat airplanes (more than 400 in 1996)
16 attack helicopters
38 transport planes (from which 4 C-130 Hercules)
1 destroyer
6 fregates with rockets
3 corvets
31 vedets (more than 75 in 1996)

In 1998, the budget for the army was of 832,4 million US $

[PanzerKing]

Thanks for the info, I can tell you aren't happy with the budget cuts.

[inahurry]

The situation is a little more complex though.

I agree with Dacul when he points out the present and future army is by no way an army who could defend the country without foreign help.

The reduction in size is too big but reduction of certain obsolete armaments was necessary (tanks for example).

The most dramatic case though is defense industry. It is almost wiped out. It employs about 10-15% of the personel it once used to. The destruction of a whole class of specialists is complete.

The military budget wasn't reduced lately, on the contrary it increased dramatically but only because the prices for imported stuff and the absurd contributions to all foreign adventures (Afghanistan, Iraq, Bosnia etc.) costs a lot.

What's left of the defense industry survives through some modernizations programs. The one that was successfuly completed being the modernization of the Mig-21 fleet with the Israelis (all in all more than 300 million dollars). Problem is the fleet of modernized jets is destined only as stop gap measure and in the next 5 years it will be scrapped.

There's also a modernization program for the romanian tank (TR) with the french.

We are buying 2 fregates from the british (from the 'can' where they were put) and also the let's say destroyer (but I believe it was downgraded) should be modernized too.

The military personnel (excluding civilian working for the Defense Ministry) will probably drop below 100,000, more likely 80,000. totally insuficient in case of war.

Also just recently 'we' (read the government, ok, ok, parliament for those who think we still have one) decided the recruitment will be strictly on a voluntary basis for the part of the army who isn't already employed under contract. In other words, because there isn't any other kind of military trainning, the population won't have any military knowledge or training.

[inahurry]

War with Hungary is always a possibility but it goes like this - Romania has no interest to attack them so if Hungary manages to create an explosive situation you can bet she will have her back covered. But what Hungary can hope to obtain is some territorial autonomy for one or some areas which are completely economically dependent on the rest of the country. Imo, Hungary has no interest for an open conflict because even if Romania loses (militarily or under foreign pressure) what Hungary will gain would be temporary but instead she will create such a reaction among Romanians that in short time it will hit back with a vengence.

Hungary successfully managed to erode the authority of the Romanian state in a few counties but this is only because the Romanian government wants this to happen. In the end if the representatives of the Hungarian minority won't change their attitude the policy they promote now will turn against them.

Both Hungarian and Romanians face a dangerous demographic decline but Hungarians will be more affected in the long run.

Whatever the Hungarian desires if there weren't other forces at work (the regionalist tendencies supported at European level in oreder to create a very dubious kind of political union) they wouldn't be able to do much.

The Romanian government played the NATO and EU cards which can guarantee, eventually, complete inviolability of our territory but the costs are tremendous and the shape of the future Europe, as I said, is rather dubious so I believe their acceptance of all kind of humiliating and economically disastrous conditions could become a danger.

[Geto-Dacul]

Great post, inahurry!

For the army's capacity, we must also take in account the "moral" situation of Romania's teens and young adults, who is declining when refering to military service and patriotism... With the modifications in the Constitution, it is said that military service will be optional by fall... Which from my point of vue is a big mistake.

Best regards,

G-D

P.S.: BTW, inahurry, what the hell is with that curious avatar???!!!!!! It doesn't stop shocking me!

[inahurry]

the avatar is one of the characters drawn by Hugo Pratt in his series of Corto Maltese strangely attractive adventures. The time frame being the begining of the 20th century. Pratt was (he died) quite an interesting artist and his work also. This particular one seems to be a chinese warlord in the 1920ies. I've seen some of the Corto Maltese albums but I'm not sure one involving this Chinese characther.

[Geto-Dacul]

QUOTE

This particular one seems to be a chinese warlord in the 1920ies.

Looking more like an alien!!!

[inahurry]

..... well ....... sometimes I'm not sure even about myself let alone the Chinese

[PanzerKing]

Great replies! This kind of information is the best, straight from Romanian citizens! It's very interesting to me that you are concerned with "optional" military service. The draft was taken away here in the states long before I was born so I know nothing else...you don't want to fight you don't have to. The crazy thing is, people are just was willing to join the army or join the reserves. But out of a nation of 280 million, I suppose it seems average.

My question is, does Romania actually have a foreign threat? I can't think of any country that would want to attack Romania, or any reason for that matter.

Peace 8)

[Victor]

The Romanian army is presently undergoing a process of reorganization and modernization, which Imo is very benefic. We do not need a large useless army, but a smaller, slender, more effective, professional force, no matter what some may think.

The recent Iraqi war had shown us what a good equipped and very well trained army could do. I am referring of course to the British Army, which IMO is a good model for us. The US Army/Marines are something else.

The new structure of forces will be:
1. Active Forces: 3 mechanized brigades (81st, 282nd and ?), 1 armored brigade, 1 mountain brigade (1st), 1 airborne, 1 artillery brigade, 1 air defense brigade, 1 engineer brigade, 1 logistics brigade (122nd)
2. Territorial Forces: 6 mechanized brigades, 1 armored brigade, 2 mountain brigades, 2 artillery brigades, 2 air defense brigades, 1 engineer brigade, 2 logistics brigades
3. Reserve Forces

The Mechanized Infantry Brigade OoB:
-2 infantry battalions
-1 tank battalion
-1 AT battalion
-1 AA battalion
-support elements

Main Battle Tanks 1235 (CFE 1375)
Armored Personnel Carriers 1614 (CFE 2100) + 165 recon vehicles
Artillery 1291 (CFE 1475) (most 122 mm and 152 mm)
Mortars 2321
AT guns 951
Multiple rocket launchers 160

The Navy has one frigate (Marasesti class, former destroyer), 5 Tetal class frigates, one un-operational Kilo class submarine, 3 Tarantul class missile corvettes and many motor torpedo boats (I think we are mong the few navies that still use them). Two frigates have been bought from the Royal Navy (the former HMS London and HMS Coventry, I think) and will be delivered in 2004 and 2005.

There is also the Danube flotilla, but I do not know its force.

The air force is not a in a very good shape, but the MiG-21 Lancers are pretty good and are still flying (they will do so until 2010, not 2008 as inahurry said). The MiG-29s are in conservation as their rehabilitation was seen as senseless since we plan on buying new aircraft in 2010. Most likely F-16s, even though the JAS-39 would be better IMO.
There is a good site about the RoAF (with info about units and lots of photos) here: www.deltawing.go.ro

QUOTE

With the modifications in the Constitution, it is said that military service will be optional by fall... Which from my point of vue is a big mistake.

Why? The best armies in Europe (British, French, German) are professional. The time of large conscript armies is gone. During the one year of service there was not enough time to adequately train a recruit. Thus the money would be better spent on a professional soldier who has more time to train and most likely a much higher motivation that the recruits. The number of suicides in the army is already very high. Unfortunately sometimes these young men also take others down with them. I think the professional and volunteer service is a good thing. And the reform in the army is moving on (probably because the politicians have nothing to do with it).

QUOTE

My question is, does Romania actually have a foreign threat?

No really.

[Geto-Dacul]

Victor wrote :

QUOTE

Why? The best armies in Europe (British, French, German) are professional. The time of large conscript armies is gone. During the one year of service there was not enough time to adequately train a recruit. Thus the money would be better spent on a professional soldier who has more time to train and most likely a much higher motivation that the recruits. The number of suicides in the army is already very high. Unfortunately sometimes these young men also take others down with them. I think the professional and volunteer service is a good thing. And the reform in the army is moving on (probably because the politicians have nothing to do with it).

Small and professional... :? Those armies are vulnerable... If your small and professional force is encircled and destroyed, what will happen next, taking in consideration that your citizens have no idea of warfare... For the Romanian people, as for any nation that never attained the "imperialist" stage (as did France, UK, Germany, Spain, USA and other West European powers), the creation of "mercenary" armies would mean national suicide. Armies motivated by money are more dangeroulsy inclined to treason, just considering what the Americand did in Iraq, with a conscript army (buying some generals, in order to sabotate plans of resisting in Bagdad). The suicide phenomenon is not really dued to conscription, or military service, but to the nation's moral state... Suicides and desertions have always existed.

BTW, most of the "material" that we are receiving (or will receive) will be scrap by 2010... F-16s are already becoming to be replaced by more sophisticated models, as for the "warships" from Britain...

[inahurry]

About possible threats :

Romania (though this is not the government’s policy) has rightful territorial claims against Ukraine – a small but historically important piece of land in the north- north-east called Northern Bucovina/Bukovina, another, not too large piece of land just north the Danube Delta called southern Basarabia/Bessarabia and the only Black Sea’s island – very small but strategically and economically (because it allows the expansion of the national waters zone) important – Insula Serpilor (the Snakes Island). In both those areas the Romanians are now a minority though.
Also there exists another Romanian state – the Republic of Moldova which comprises most of what is known as Basarabia/Bessarabia and a small piece of land across the Nistru (Dniestr) river. It is foreseeable that Romania and Republic of Moldova will unite, Moldova republic being absorbed into Romania (not unlike the former East Germany was into West Germany). This may cause problems with the Russian and Ukrainian minorities there and it is very possible the part beyond Nistru will secede. The merging of the two Romanian states is for now halted by an European status quo (again the regionalist tendencies encouraged by some European bureaucracy and transnational “elite” have something to do).
So, this would make the Ukrainians as the most probable foreign threat. The Hungarians have unvested claims for the province of Transilvania/Transsylvania (or at least at parts of it). They have a problem though because they are everywhere a minority there except for two counties which are placed exactly in the middle of Romania. As it is highly improbable that Romania could be prevented to become a full-fledged member of NATO next year this makes Romania and Hungary allies (again!) and NATO (read US) is unlikely to allow any military conflict between its members, the alliance’s constraint solving nothing of course, just preventing.
The irony is Romania and Hungary have been allies almost all the time since 1940 – as part of the Axis, then inside Warsaw Pact and now inside NATO. But friends we are not. All that is reasonable to hope for is we will move from historical to traditional enemies and from hate to grudge.
The other neighbors are Serbia and Bulgaria. Theoretically we are friends with the Serbs. We may find if we want, and so can they, claims for a bit of their land and they for a bit of ours but it is unlikely. Furthermore the Romanian speaking minority there is more important than theirs here. The people kind of like each other but it is always the governments who decide. When Serbia was attacked by NATO Romania helped NATO, including military help, ( despite overwhelming popular rejection - in the range of 75-80% were against NATO intervention, including otherwise very pro-western elites). I wonder if the Serbs are soon to forget this, though the common people and many of their intellectuals know very well we, as a people, were on their side.
Bulgaria has some dreams about Dobrogea (Doubroudja) which is the province that allows Romania access to the sea but those are just dreams. We could claim a small territory (known as Cadrilater – just south of Dobrogea) which was part of the Great Romania (the Romania between 1918-1940) but, in my opinion, that matter is settled. Again, the Romanian speaking population in Bulgaria is more numerous and more compact than the Bulgarian one here.
If you throw in religious differences – the only major difference is with the Hungarians who are either protestants or catholics while Romanians are overwhelmingly Christian orthodox. Even the United with Rome church members (orthodox in rite but subordinated to the Pope) comprising some Romanians are very nationalistic even if otherwise they have feuds with the Romanian Orthodox Church. The same is true for the Baptist or other neo-protestant churches whose members are unlikely to forget they are Romanians even when there are disputes over religious matters. All other neighboring countries are overwhelmingly orthodox with practical no religious disagreements with the Romanian orthodoxy.
Numbers : Hungarians - about 7% of the entire population; Gypsies – probably more than 7% but 1) they don’t declare themselves as such – they choose to be known either as Romanians or Hungarians depending on the language they speak, their own language (in the measure such language exists) is hardly spoken. Their religious affiliations are also according to the language they speak. 2) some of them are in fact mixed blood (likewise there is a number of Romanian-Hungarian marriages too) so the distinction is many times caused by the social status and social behavior. 3) the Hungarians fiercely cultivate their differences while the Gypsies don’t; The other minorities are very small in numbers but some have political and economical clout, like the Jews - though their influence is based on the power of the Jewish organizations worldwide, that of the very important Romanian-Jews community in Israel or the important Hungarian-Jews like George Soros or Tom Lantos (these ones being very controversial characters indeed) and far less on the small community here. Under normal demographic conditions though, the “melting pot” in Romania can have only one outcome.
Economics : almost the entire economy (especially industry, communications, part of the energy providers, practically the entire banking system, soon all the public utilities, less the agriculture but this one is agonizing) is or will soon be under foreign control. Frankly, there isn’t much difference between the French capital or the German capital but the influence the capital from other countries has, especially via Hungary and Russia, is regarded with suspicion. It is tragic when industrial capacities are bought for pennies and then dismantled or left to rot while what they produced until recently we now have to import. And , no, it’s not about obsolete plants. It would be too disgusting to mention World Bank, IMF or EU meddling and absurd (for us, profitable for them and their sponsors) conditions. A comparison with post WW1 Romania is not at all far fetched with the difference that post-1989 Romania was an industrialized and almost self-sufficient economy (except for some raw materials). Not anymore.
Resuming, the possible military threat – but worldwide political conditions have to change quite a bit before this is possible – remains Ukraine, under some very special circumstances Ukraine in conjunction with Hungary, or Hungary alone, again under special circumstances.
Militarily, Romania is weakened but none of its neighbors is in the position to control for long any hypothetical territorial gains. In fact, if no major power backs with direct support a potential aggressor I doubt any of our neighbors taken individually would ever win a military confrontation with Romania. But with a tendency to become completely dependent on NATO (narrow specialization) the military potential even if it will continue to exist can prove useless outside the alliance strategies.
I don’t think conventional/military warfare is the main threat, other non-conventional aggressions are far more dangerous. The topic of military threats could be intellectually interesting but it’s becoming of secondary importance.
From a politically –strategic point of view, the trend after 1989 was to create smaller (and like this more controllable states) and thus the disintegration of Yugoslav federation and Czechoslovakian federation, exploiting their inner conflicts. This was possible exactly because those were federative countries. For now, especially if Romania doesn’t force a re-unification with Moldova, the “national, indivisible, united and sovereign” status the 1st article in our Constitution proclaims allows no political, internal or external, possibility similar with what happened in Yugoslavian or Czechoslovak federation. There is now pressure to change the Constitution and this might happen though I think they underestimate the people intelligence and the referendum needed for any constitutional change could turn out to be a big slap on the government’s face, we’ll see. Even if adopted the modifications to the Constitution are again more in the direction of a regionalist Europe than a classic federation – the main target is the provision which prevents foreigners to own land here, of lesser importance but creating a precedent is allowing Hungarian language in justice.
I think for an American some issues are hard to grasp but certain comparisons with trends happening there could be made.

[inahurry]

QUOTE

I think the professional and volunteer service is a good thing. And the reform in the army is moving on (probably because the politicians have nothing to do with it).

Exaggerating a little, the politicians have usually nothing to do with anything in Romania.
But the restructuring of the military forces has nothing to do with the military analysis either. It is imposed from outside as almost everything else disregarding entirely national interests. In fact, even when some high-ranking commanders would try to correct some absurdities the political control exercised by the civilian leaders of the Defense Ministry and the foreign councilors would stop them short.
Not to mention how humiliating is for a lieutenant-colonel to check his decisions with an American sergeant-major (no disrespect here but this happens).

[Republican Guard]

QUOTE

As it is highly improbable that Romania could be prevented to become a full-fledged member of NATO next year this makes Romania and Hungary allies (again!) and NATO (read US) is unlikely to allow any military conflict between its members, the alliance’s constraint solving nothing of course, just preventing.

Not if Vadim Tudor has anything to say about that. How close are the elections?

PS Great post