Polish Aircraft that Sought Refuge in Rumania in 1939

And something from the Polish side...


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Was any of the listed Polish planes of the low wing, monoplane type?
Was any of those types fully metallic?

Or all those types were biplanes, with wood and canvas, and maybe partially metal-clad?

Does Poland had a real modern airplane of indigenous production, regardless the number? As an example, Yugoslavia had a modern type indigenous fighter, when it was attacked in April 1941. But just 6 pieces. However, those 6 airplanes shot down 12 Luftwaffe planes in the few days of the campaign. France also had planes as good as the Me-109, but in very few numbers. And Romania, if it would be attacked in 1940, had its IAR-80, but is such few numbers, that unquestionably it would be no match for Luftwaffe.

I think Soviet Union was in a situation resembling Poland when they were invaded in June 1941. As far as I know, in June 1941 Soviet Union had available only the Polikarpov series, already obsolete in that moment.

This post has been edited by Florin on November 21, 2004 07:13 pm

See here:
http://www.worldwar2.ro/arr/pzl24e.htm
http://www.worldwar2.ro/arr/pzl37b.htm

Interesting reading, that clarifies a lot.First it says Romania and Poland had a treaty which permited to either side to choose a neutral stance, then it says Poland never asked Romania to engage against their agressors, also that Romania permited the treasury (someone pls translate that) to pass on its teritory en route to UK.Given the neutral stance of Romania at that time, any troops engaged in war that passed the romanian frontiere had to be disarmed and interned, Romanian gov. offered assilum to what was left of polish gov. but only as civilians and not as politicians, due to the natural feelings of the polish people, romanian gov. had to intern all polish members of government, however they permited to most of polish troops and politicians to "escape" and go to France.Would be interesting to read the next page which was saying something about the material.

For D13 th_Mytzu:

Nobody questioned the fact that it was not quite a "perfect" neutrality. As written above, Armand Calinescu paid for that with his life, in September 1939, and Romania paid dearly for that in 1940.

But it was not the only case when a country did not respect its neutrality obligations during World War II. I could give 4...5 examples instantly, but they do not fit under "ARR", but rather under "WW2 in general".

This post has been edited by Florin on November 23, 2004 12:08 am

Thank you for the links, Victor.

The twin engine bomber could be regarded as reasonable modern, for 1939...1941, but the fighter was already of an obsolete design.

Well, this is not a crime, considering the fact that in 1939 the only aerial fleets with a high percentage of modern planes were the German and the British.

Armand Calinescu was killed in September 1939.

It should be noted that the Romanian-Polish alliance was directed only against the Soviet Union. By the time the Red Army attacked, the situation was already lost. A Romanian intervention would have been without point and I think the friendly neutrality served Poland more.

Florin I was only making a quick translation for woj as I understand he does not speak romanian.

Thanks. I don't speak Romanian at all, but I understand a little. I have been interested in history of Polish-Romanian relations from many years. I wrote (a lot of time ago) MA about Polish military refugees and members of Polish authorities interned in Romania. I must write, that information: "Given the neutral stance of Romania at that time, any troops engaged in war that passed the romanian frontiere had to be disarmed and interned, Romanian gov. offered assilum to what was left of polish gov. but only as civilians and not as politicians, due to the natural feelings of the polish people, romanian gov. had to intern all polish members of government..." is true - but not quite. According to international conventions (Hague) Romanian authority had to disarm and intern Polish soldiers and other military persons. But similiar action towards members of Polish civil authorities was only a political decision - perhaps necessary from the Romanian point of viev.
BTW - I read Armand Călinescu, Însemnări politice 1916-1939 (ed. A. G. Savu), Bucureşti 1990, and many other books. And I must explain that Călinescu was assassinated not only (or even - not mainly!) because his help for Poles. For Iron Guard Călinescu was close connected with murder of Codreanu.

Woj do you have the 2nd page from that article you posted ? I think it was about polish planes and other military material that arrived in Romania at that time.

BTW: once in London I met an old polish guy who heard me and my father speaking romanian, so he asked us if we are from Romania and we said "yes", it turns out he was a soldier who escaped to Romania and later got to UK, the only romanian words he remembered in romanian I don';t think I am allowed to say in here

Armand Calinescu was killed in September 1939.

Yes, Victor, of course.

It is that kind of situation when your brain knows that is 1939, but your hands typewrite "1940", and then your eyes do not catch the matter to transmit it back to the brain.

I'll try to edit my message, to put 1939 in stead of 1940.

This post has been edited by Florin on November 23, 2004 12:09 am

Hey, Woj, you are great!

What do you do to typewrite ă and Î ?

Is this possible with any Microsoft Word version, 2000 or later?

This post has been edited by Florin on November 23, 2004 12:16 am

Question (for Woj, but not only):

In those sad days, did Poland had the possibility to evacuate its belongings in any other way, other than Romania?

I know at least one Baltic state was a German satellite, but I don't know what was the situation with the other 2 Baltic states.

Did Sweden allowed any Polish airplanes or ships to land there? What about Finland?
I know the submarine "Orzel" made it to England, but I forgot the details as I read them many years ago.

I am curious because the first "Enigma" encoding machine to be available to the British secret services was actually obtained by the Polish Secret Service. Then, as Poland collapsed, this machine was sent to Great Britain. That machine was very important. It allowed to a very smart guy from England, named Turing, to design and supervise the construction of an "Enigma" decoder. A British historian wrote about the Polish gift: It was like when a man, dying, is throwing his sword to somebody else to continue the fight.

If Romania was the only route for the Polish belongings, this means that the "Enigma" traveled via Romania.

This post has been edited by Florin on November 23, 2004 01:26 am

Yes. Hungary.

Many soldiers and civilian crossed the Polish-Hungarian border in September 1939. A few Polish airplanes also flew to Hungary.

The Polish-Hungarian friendship has long tradition.

Col. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on November 23, 2004 04:50 am

Yeah, right!

Iama