Polish Aircraft that Sought Refuge in Rumania in 1939

Was there a need for a food black market in 1942?
AFAIK, there was plenty of food in Rumania throughout the war (things changed dramatically in 1947, though).

Col. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on November 24, 2004 09:16 pm

According to publication quoted (Tadeusz Dubicki, Wojsko Polskie w Rumunii 1939-1941, Warszawa 1994, p. 88) money for Polish and Romanian privates were the same! And after about 3 months money for Poles were cut about 10%. I didn't write about soldier's pay (salaries) - but only about money for board and accomodation (maintenance).

This post has been edited by woj on November 24, 2004 09:02 pm

Denes read closely what I said - in the barracks - yes ofcourse it was, because soldiers were not geting enough food daily and they did not get permissions either, so other ppl speculated this and sold bred at very high prices in places where they could reach the soldiers.As D. Faranga wrote in his diary on 1st August 1942 he got the money for july and that was 48 lei, which is 1.55 lei per day.But as Woj said:

I wanted, to ask you something Voj but I forgot: do you have any info from polish pilots who landed in Romaniain 1939 about their welcome here ? the only thing I read about this was in T. Greceanu's book where he remembers the polish birds landing there still haveing the marks of battle, our pilots were looking with amazement at those planes and pilots.

This post has been edited by D13-th_Mytzu on November 24, 2004 09:51 pm

When I read this, I remembered something not recalled by any of you.

During the siege of Vienna in 1688, the attack of the Polish army, led by king Sobietsky, forced the Ottoman troops to abandon the siege of the city. Following the retreating Turkish troops, the Habsburg dynasty occupied Hungary and Transylvania.
Well, for Hungary was just the change of the master, but anyway the Austrians were to be preferred to the Turks.

But also I fought sometimes if the Poles would bother to help the Austrians, if they could predict the future laying ahead... The division of Poland happening a century later.

Was there a need for a food black market in 1942?
AFAIK, there was plenty of food in Rumania throughout the war.

Col. Dénes

Food in Romania was in quantities not even dreamed by an average member of the German working class, for example. The German soldiers transiting Romania bought food from the Romanians living in countryside, and sent it to Germany. I can be more specific, if you are curious.
However, as the war was running for years, some rationalization started to be imposed in 1942...1944. This means a lot of things had to be bought with tickets / quotas. Well, some rationalization during World War II was even in the United States, so it can be considered normal for that war.

This post has been edited by Florin on December 01, 2004 03:41 am

Yes. Hungary.

Many soldiers and civilian crossed the Polish-Hungarian border in September 1939. A few Polish airplanes also flew to Hungary.

The Polish-Hungarian friendship has long tradition.

Col. Dénes

This is a good occasion to remember that in September 1939 Hungary happened to have border with Poland because it accepted Rutenia from Hitler. Rutenia was previously a part of Czechoslovakia, until the country ceased to exist in March 1939.

I do not know if to Poland was offered something during the partition of Czechoslovakia, and it did not accepted, or if it was not offered anything from start.
Returning to Hungary, accepting Hitler's gift was like a complicity in crime, even though it not committed the crime itself.

I do not know the answer to the question: Did the Hungarian army invaded Czechoslovakia in the same time with the German army in March 1939?
Anyway, this subject does not fit under "ARR" topics.

This post has been edited by Florin on December 02, 2004 12:11 am

Florin, this is a good occasion to correct and annotate your incomplete description of the recent history of the territory variously known as Trans-Carpathia, Sub-Carpathia (Kárpátalja), Ruthenia, Transcarpathian Ukraine, etc.

That particular territory belonged to Czechoslovakia only for 20 years, before it was part of the Kingdom of Hungary for much longer. Therefore it wasn't a "gift" from Hitler, as you erroneously describe it, but rather a recovery of a former Hungarian territory with the meaning of arm swhen Czechoslovakia dismembered, until the historical Hungarian-Polish border was re-established -- although Berlin must have given its acceptance to the operation.

Indeed this is not part of the main topic, however.

Col. Dénes

FLorin, rationalization and food problems started once operations began on 22 June 1941, but because of good crops, especially in 1943, in the later war years there was more than enough food to go around. So I would say teh situation was reverse. It was worse in 1941-42 than in 1943-44.

As for the partition of Czechoslovakia, Poland took the small region of Teschen.

PAX, PAX!!! PAX VOBISCUM!
Discussion shouldn't be about political problems of the region, and its historical background. Not in this topic, please!
Florin: siege of Vienna took place in 1683, not in 1688. The attack of the Polish army (and other forces of Christian coalition) during the battle of Vienna was led by king Jan Sobieski, not Sobietsky (12 september, 1683).

Back to the main stream of the topic:
If I would like to research service and fight of Polish aircraft (all the kinds: purchased in Poland, built in Romania under the licence, and interned) in the ARR during the WW2 - are there any sources? Question for Denes - but not only, of course.

This post has been edited by woj on December 02, 2004 07:43 am

In what language do you want your sources?

woj you can find info about this in Denes Bernad's book: "Romanian Air Force - The Prime Decade, 1938 - 1947" a very nice book

Romanian, of course. I have no other way, I am afraid.
D13-th_Mytzu: I know Denes book (and - M. Axworthy, C. Scafeş, C. Craciunoiu, Third Axix Fourth Ally...., and Aviaţia Română pe frontul de Est şi în apărarea teritoriului..., vol I-II, and some articles from AI, and...) I have this book near me even now. .
I know most of basic facts. I have interesting documents from Polish archives. Now I think about wider, serious historical studies (may be, it depends...: time...money...language...). In the 90's I read about ARR archival documents which could be research in Piteşti. Is it true?

This post has been edited by woj on December 02, 2004 06:27 pm

Well, it seems we are on the right way to get the full picture.
Just few things should be added:

Rhutenia was obtained from Austria in 1867, under the partition of power agreed for the survival of the Austrian Empire. So it belonged to Hungary since 1867.
51 years compared with 20...

But "the historical Hungarian-Polish border"?
That was last time in 1526, when Hungary was defeated by the Ottoman Empire and transformed into a Turkish province. After 1688, it changed into an Austrian province.
At the end of the 18th century, Poland also ceased to exist, to restart a new existence in 1918.

There was no border between Hungary and Poland between 1526 and March 1939.

This post has been edited by Florin on December 02, 2004 08:56 pm

Sorry, Woj

I have no time in this moment to double-check in books. It seems my memory betrays me. Maybe I would be smarter if I wouldn't write at all.

WOW! Florin - who was your history teacher?! Have you ever seen historical map of Europe from 17th or 18th century?! Like - for example - this one (Europe about 1700):
http://www.euratlas.com/time/nea1700.jpg
or this (about 1660):
http://www.1uptravel.com/worldmaps/central-europe7.html
or this (about 1547):
http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/...europe_1547.jpg

This post has been edited by woj on December 02, 2004 09:13 pm

Yes woj, there are archives at Pitesti but I am not sure about what is required to get access to them.BTW: how come you have the books in romanian and the info you want in romanian since you do not speak the language ?