Polish Aircraft that Sought Refuge in Rumania in 1939

Short information in English about PZL history after September you can find here: http://www.pzl-okecie.com.pl/ , more general data concernin PZL - here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PZL . There was two PZL aircraft factories in 1939, located in Warsaw (PZL-WP1, older), and Mielec (PZL WP-2, a new one - built just before the WWII). The first was captured by German troops 8 September 1939, afternoon (damaged by bombardments - see attached picture taken from German Ju-52 22 September 1939). The secon (also damaged) was captured 13 September 1939. In both cases factories were used by Germans.
Part of PZL personnel crossed Romanian border. Some dozens of Polish engineers, technicians were employed in IAR factory in Brasov until spring 1941, another group came to Turkey. And - last but not least - there were former PZL engineers in France, and - after fall of France - in British aurcraft industry. I have more datailed data, of course. I can write more - if you are interested in.

Attached Image

It was rather the other way, the British probably took inspiration from the Germans, namely from an earlier Heinkel design, the He 70 'Blitz', which featured an elliptical wing.

I agree that the He 112 was a very effective and sleek airplane. As for its weak engine, it was not unlike the engine type used in earlier Bf 109s, hence the two type's performances were similar.

Col. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on December 06, 2004 04:00 pm

Woj,

Thank you for taking your time to answer. Yes, if you have time for some additional notes, I would be glad to read them. Maybe you know what type of airplanes were built under German supervision.

As a personal point of view, I think the Germans made a big mistake in the first days of the war, when they bombed many Polish factories. I say that because they knew they will use this new revolutionary tactic (blitzkrieg), which will result in fast advances of whole motorized / armored units.

So what they should do? To don't touch the industrial plants as long the advance through the country kept the momentum. If somehow the offensive would be bogged down, and the front line would become static, then yes, it makes sense to start to bomb the industrial plants.

The Germans even bombed mill plants with huge furnaces to melt metal, which was quite stupid, because it is very hard to rebuild them.

This post has been edited by Florin on December 06, 2004 06:10 pm

It was rather the other way, the British probably took inspiration from the Germans, namely from an earlier Heinkel design, the He 70 'Blitz', which featured an elliptical wing.

...Or maybe each of them created their project with no external inspiration. The designer of Spitfire previously created some prestigious aircrafts for airplane race, winning the Schneider Trophy few times. The designer, Mr. Mitchell, died of colon cancer at age 42, and he never saw his Spitfire acting in combat. The big problem with the Spitfire was the difficult assembling technology, because Mr. Mitchell, as designer for race airplanes, had to build about 1...3 pieces for each yearly race. Nobody would dream, not even the R.A.F. officials, that one day 10 Spitfires will leave the factory daily.
Maybe you had the chance to see the documentary: "The Battle of Britain - How the Spitfire Airplane was built".

Interesting discussion... Dénes is not the only person with that opinion about a more than casual liasion between the general design of the He-70 and the Spitfire. I have, so to say, the same feeling and the same can be said of a friend who's currently engaged in a deep research on the He-70: he's pretty much persuaded that such inspiration did happened.
There were others who also forwarded this idea, long time ago; a name I can recall immediately is Thomas G. Foxworth, author of "Speed Seekers", an excellent book on the inter-war speed races, unsurpassed to this day as a single reference on the subject, (it is a huge tome with c. 550 pages!), and originally published in 1974 by Doubleday & Company, Inc. A second, slightly revised edition was printed around the late Eighties.

Ruy

How well was known He-70 beyond the borders of Germany?

Was it shown in propaganda parades? Or in cinema news? Did He-70 took part in speed races?

Well, maybe you are right. Bad engineers make a copy identical with the model. Good engineers improve the source of inspiration, if anything was left for improvement.

The 'Blitz' was very well known internationally. Because it was originally a passenger airplane, it showed up on most European airports.
Moreover, the British bought a sole He 70, which received British civilian register.

Col. Dénes

OK.

Now I am a believer.

When I'll get back my borrowed VHS tape, I'll try to post some blue prints about some previous shapes of Spitfire (in drawings), and maybe even an image with the first military airplane of Mr. Mitchell (Spitfire being the second). First, by the way, was a failure. (It can happen to anyone...)


This post has been edited by Florin on December 07, 2004 10:51 pm

As this topic started about the Polish airplanes, and insisted for a while around PZL P. 24, it is good to remember that actually the last type in the series was developed by the Romanians.

The P.24G was the final Romanian developement of the P.24E, with a reinforced armament. They flew only after the fall of the original creator of the series: Poland.
Six pieces were exported to Greece.

This post has been edited by Florin on December 07, 2004 11:09 pm

Mistake! Some mistakes... P.24G fighters were Polish origin - sold to Greece in October 1936. The last aircraft from P.24 line was P.24J - ready in the first months of 1938. In fact existed only one fighter of this type - in August 1939 was prepared for delivery to Bulgaria.
Florin - I remember your previous question. But I need some free time to write answer. Be patient, please.

Its a mistake with base in internet contrary info. For example, in a site "E" variant is declared much the same with "G" because had 4 MGs. In another, "E" is like turkish "C" because had 2 MG and 2 20 m.m. (Joe Baugher's site).

Iama

Florin,

Still on the He-70: besides from showing up in most European airports as a civilian aircraft, the "Blitz" was also used extensively (and with a high degree of success) in Spain during the Civil War and not only as fast recon bird - it was also used to perform some accurate bombing on some hidroelectrical facilities in the Pyrenees. The last remaining examples were retired only in the early 1950s!!

As for the P.24 the "J" version, as Woj correctly pointed out, was the last development of the series. Earlier versions were proposed both to Portugal and Spain too in the mid-Thirties and the Spanish Republican government even considered the acquisition of some P.11 (of the "C" version, if my memory does not betray me) in the first stages of the S.C.W. - on Russian advise!!
In what concerns the P.Z.L. company itself, they had a very interesting aircraft on paper when the Germans invaded, an aircraft of outstandingly modern design and a potential match for any foreign rival, the P.62. It reflected a total different approach to fighter design (in first place, it was to be powered by an in-line engine) when compared to the elusive P.Z.L. P.50.

Ruy

I think a link its needed, for PZL projects, to understand much better....

Iama

Iama,

You can try this link: http://www.samoloty.ow.pl/
Then follow the thumb "Samoloty polskie". You will find other projects there. I remember also an old Polish site - a bilingual one - about aircraft developed up to 1939, but I think it is no longer operational... Woj, do you have any clue about what happened to the site?
Best regards,

Ruy

Some other sites:
www.9-1939.pl (bilingual - but I didn't expect that you mentioned this one)
http://www.sanko.wroclaw.pl/
http://www.psr.netfriend.org/mysliwcy/