Tidal Wave Footage Photos, 15th AAF and Luftwaffe, 'Black Sunday', 1 August 1943

Alex,

You can dismiss all you want about a 2nd Lt. not capable of making a mistake in retracting the landing gear on Ents. B-25. It happened, whether you believe it or not. I talked directly to Ents nephew, and that's what he told me. I suggest that if you don't believe it, you contact him yourself. Some people make mistakes, Compton was perhaps one of them, do you believe THAT. Not (everyone) is perfect, as you might tend to believe.

Some people thought the world was flat, until it was proven otherwise. If you don't believe information that people have acquired from a first hand reliable (next of kin source), then it would be wise that you do your own research and try being a little less critical of information that comes from people in the know. Perhaps there are still some people who think the world is flat.

I spent 16 years of schooling with a good friend, who was the most argumentative person I have ever known. One professor called him on his argumentative nature in class one day, saying that he and his family must come from Missouri. My friend was quick to reply, saying that his family came from Romania.

Kent Jaquith

In the book "Vanatorul IAR 80" was mixed informations from two sources archiv records but it never said that Barladeanu was credited on 1 august with 4 victories.
Also in his memories Barladeanu mentioned only two B-24. So there is no exageration. The crashed place of Sad Sack plane was given in on source Contesti and the other Butimanu but both village are very close. Also the other claim, in one source is given Poiana Burchii and the other Bilciuresti but both village are very close. So only two crashed places but with 4 villages mentioned in archiv records.

Dan.

Alex, look in the victory table at the end of the book. Barladeanu was credited with 2 B-24s on 1 August 1943. Sometimes the book gives the information on the same events from two different sources. This is why the locations of the crashes are different, even though they are in fact referring to the same aircraft.

The same thing about the episode of Carol Anastasescu. On the lower part of page 146 is the Gendarmerie report that mentions that they found Anastasescu and no. 222 on a field near Vega. At page 148 you have Anastasescu's story. The book presents the same events from different sources.

Dan

Here we go into the old ARR Forum contradictions games which seems to never end ....howabout you check again page 147 and 148 .

It says Barladeanu brought down in conjuntion with the ME-109's 2 B-24 at about 14;00 hrs and at 15: 30 an other 2 ...these are the exagerations I meant .

I highly dislike these teacher/student games at ARR Forum and those who visit the forum just for putting comas ..that is why by now this forum is deadly empty of posts, facts which I have warned all of you earlier on when this all has started along with the personal attacks...etc

I recommend those who feel the need to put comas or teach lessons to do this on their free time and own space.....I am not about who's right or wrong and I am on here primarily to revive TW history ....... I am asking you as well anyone else who feel this need to either properly rephrase their point or simply not respond my posts.........My posts on here are mainly to be read by all those who want to discuss the history and bring new facts and not those who wait to put comas.

Initially you did a lot for the TW and I am disappointed you turned all this into counter productive discussions.

Take Care
Alex

This post has been edited by alexkdl on April 07, 2005 03:53 pm

Victor I saw all this though please review again page 147 and 148

Alex

Alex, nobody is acting here as a teacher. We are just trying to explain that the book is in a pretty raw form from the point of view of the information it contains and that the same info is sometimes presented from different sources. I also made the same confusion the first time I read the book and since then went through it several times, correcting some mistakes. A solution would be to doublecheck the text with the victory table at the end of the book, in confusing cases.

Mr. Antoniu and Cicos have a very large Word Document (thousands of pages long) in which they write down every piece of information they find in the archives, day-by-day. When the book was published, they had been gathering information for 10 years and were pretty anxious to get it out to the public and did not have time to write it properly and filter the information. The "IAR-80 in service" part was takjen directly from the Word Document without much work on it being done. And the book suffered from it as you can very well see. Putting aside the spelling errors, there are many confusive fragments that can give a lot of headaches. At least they did to me. The best example is the Gendarmerie report with Anastasescu's no. 222 found landed on its belly (so it would have been impossible to crash it into the B-24) and the stories of Anastasescu's himself. Look into 1941 part of the book. There you will find something similar to the Barladeanu misunderstanding. Practically, teh same victory is mentioned twice the same day. First with the pilot claim and then in the summary at the end of the day. This is why, unfortunately, it is always neccessary to doublecheck the info with the table at the end.

Again, all this wasn't about "teaching" you something. I personally just wanted to share from the experience I had with this wonderful, but sometimes incredibly difficult, book in the past 4-5 years.

Victor

By no means I have reffered to you in anyway but someone else , look again and you will get the picture clearer...I like talking to you to Dragos and Denes..

Agan you are a great historian and I like very much working with you mate , applogises if you felt I was addressing the issue to you.

Alex

This post has been edited by alexkdl on April 07, 2005 03:58 pm

Yes, I know what it says there. You are right, but as I said, it is just the same information (Barladeanu's two kills) from another sources, which gives other names for the crash locations. The book is very confusing sometimes. The table at the end gives only two kills for Barladeanu that day though. There was also a photo of Barladeanu in his IAR-80 in 1944 IIRC with two white bars on it (kill markings), but I don't remember where I saw it.

I wasn't talking just about me. I don't believe Dan meant to be rude. His post was at 1647 hours and he was probably writing from work and didn't have time to explain things better.

Victor , putting a coma has nothing to do with being rude, I've never stampped Dan as rude ...is just a bitter reminder of other posts related on whether the gun was dark or light on whether the wing was made of fabric or wood , the amounts of rivets on the wing , if the paint was too dark or too light ......all this discurraging other members in posting topics and responding messages ...quite contrary Dan has good knowledge of the history ...what I mean is the increase on wanting to put comas here and there rather discuss history and contribute themselves with new topics and material....do u get the picture now?

Alex

This post has been edited by alexkdl on April 07, 2005 04:42 pm

Alex,

This is the type of information I am searching for so anything that indicates the Germans were planning a defense for us would be welcomed. Do you know of any reference to the high flying FWs out of the island of Crete? This island was only 300 miles from where we were based so the Germans did make some fly overs which indicated they were probably taking photos. Please keep digging for anything which might show us how they knew out Ploesti plans. thanks

My photos for you is priority # 1. At present I am having a old negative printed 8x10 inches and will send you a copy.. Let me have your address. Other photos of my time in Benghazi and elsewhere will be included.

Bob

Hi Pat at aircorpsmodeler:

My engineer was a very reliable man, slightly older than most of us , serious type and never made mistakes in the various things he was required to do. He was a few steps ahead of what was need on the plane. I flew a new B24D made in Fort Worth, Texas over to Cairo and then to Benghazi, Libya with a crew of 10 men. We kept the same plane all during my tour but there were times other crews would use it. Of the 48 missions it flew I made close to 40 of them in the same plane.

Reading what you wrote to Alex about fuel cells in the B24D and since my work was flying the plane and not transferring fuel, do the tec books show that one could drain the fuel from the "out board cells" on one side to JUST THE ENGINES ON THAT SIDE? Also did the wing "out board cells" DRAIN INTO OTHER TANKS OR WERE THEY SMALL TANKS THAT HAD TO BE TRAINED" to specific engines?

THANKS FOR YOUR HELP,
Bob Sternfels

Lt. Ioan Bârladeanu had only 2 B-24s credited to him on 1 August 1943.

As for the book authored by Messrs. Antoniu & Cicos on the I.A.R. 80/81, although it's unquestionably the best book on the topic, it has many errors and misleading information in it, mainly because of the reasons mentioned by Victor. Also, it has to be noted that Rumanian official documents are often contradictory and it takes a lot of evidence pondering and detective work to piece the events together the closest to the ultimate historical truth. I know from my own experience, it's not an easy task...

Gen. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on April 08, 2005 02:08 am

Sorry Alex, for missunderstanding my opinion about the "2 or 4 B-24 Barladeanu claims". But for us (rom.av. historians like Victor, Denes) was no doubt about only two victories credited to Barladeanu. I didn't have so much time to explain you better the mislead in that book And thanks to Victor and Denes who had more time to explain the issue.

And, Alex be sure that if i was the first to argue about this ( because you think i was only trying to stop you from posting) is only pure coincidence. Victor or Denes could do that ( the correction) instead of me. I was only more quick.
Now i 'm not sure what to do in the future. To wait the forum leaders and admin. to see all the post or to sent them PM about some mistakes posted. Because i don't want to be the guy who stop other posting and i also don't like to be the teacher.

Dan.

This post has been edited by Cantacuzino on April 12, 2005 01:11 pm

Probably it's a litlle out of topic.

Victor, it's not necesary that the two ( more like three) bars were victories marks. The picture was taken in summer '44 with " Comandor" Sandu Ion congrat. Barladeanu for a new victory ( probably another B-24). In my opinion the three bars were third squadron leader marks in 1st FG. Barladeanu was leader for that sq. in summer '44. After his death, his place was taken by Lt. Gulan Ghe. who also had on his IAR 80 nr 104 the three bars ( third sq. marks ?). Also a picture with 2 white circle ( second sq. ?) on undentified IAR 81 coud lead to this conclusion.

Below a picture with a german FW 190 with three bars marks. Definetly not victories bars. ( anyone know what they means? )




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