PZL vs. ..., In other air force then ARR

I found some data, but, i think presence of polish forumists is a good thing, and whith their presence we may have good data, memories of pilots other then ARR (polish, for ex.)

How many enemy victorys had obtained PZL in Poland campaign?
In Greece, i read, was 30 italians and 5 or 6 german airplanes.
Bulgarian action with PZL?

I expect your posts,

Iama

About Poland I should write at least short article. And - I believe - I can write, but I have to find more free time.
Greece: I am afraid that there are still nothing better then a bit obsolete book by Christopher Shores, Brian Cull, Nicola Malizia, "Air War over Yugoslavia, Greece and Crete 1940-1941", London 1987 (I have second edition, re-printed, from 1999). If you ask about PZL's fights in Greece - the newest book is: Andrzej Glass, "PZL P.24A-G", Lublin 2004 (bilingual edition). According to Mr. Glass book (p. 50): "Forty kills in all (37 - Italian, 3- German) by PZL P.24's were noted during the defense of Greece with the Greeks losing thirty-five of their planes".
Another very interesting article ("Greek PZL P.24 fighters") you can find here: http://www.brushfirewars.org/aircraft/pzl_...l_p24_greek.htm
I don't know any information about battle use of Bulgarian P.24B's. Only in the book (not the best, IMHO) written by Bulgarian author Dimitar Nedialkov, "Air Power of the Kingdom of Bulgaria", p. IV, Sofia 2001, p. 10 (bilingual) I found mention, that in the spring of 1941 Bulgarian AF were ready to participate in Operation Marita against Greece and Yugoslavia, and - between different aircraft - "...two Yatos of ten Me-109E4 Strela plus eleven PZL-24B's at Asen" were prepared to fight.

This post has been edited by woj on December 08, 2004 05:29 pm

The Greek P.24's performed well against Regia Aeronautica machines, especially against the Fiat CR 42, which was also an obsolete (yet recent) design. It it interesting to note that the CR 42 was more than a match for the Gloster Gladiator, being more maneuvrable and faster than the British fighter. However, the P.24 must have been a tough enemy. I don't know how the Greeks performed against the monoplane fighters the Italians used in the Balkan campaign, namely the Macchi C.200 Saetta and the Fiat G.50 Freccia; the former was considered superior to the later, but both suffered from all the basic problems that plagued the first generation of truly modern Italian fighters: light armament (a pair of syncronized 12,7mm Breda-SAFAT mgs, mounted in the fuselage, immediately aft the engine) and underpowered engines.*
Their performance still left a lot to be desired, especially when "i altri" used Hurricanes instead of Gladiators...
I can have a look at some Italian publications, if you're interested.

Ruy

*- of course, these shortcomings were surpassed when the Italians got German DB engines and increased the armament (mostly after importing the superb 20mm MG 151 gun).

Why not. I am intersted in information from the Italian side.
I attache the table of Greek P.24s victories and losses by A. Glass.

Attached Image

Why a PZL 11d - naval?
How it was data for PZL 11e (spanish)?
Why PZL 24 not entered in Polish service?

Iama

Dear friends,

I will search for the information from the Italian side about the Greek campaign. Anyway, and in the meantime, Iama, I can tell you that the P.Z.L. P.24 was proposed before the S.C.W. to the Spanish Aeronáutica Militar. At least, the German intelligence was quite well informed about the fact, because they considered (by mid-1935) the P.24 as a serious candidate: this is reflected in a copy of a R.L.M. document listing a sort of "shop list" suitable to the Spaniards. Eventually, the things worked out in quite a different way: the Germans failed to sell their designs and the Polish fighter wasn't even demonstrated in Spain: at least we lack documentary traces of such a thing. The winner of the fighter competion should have been an indigenous design - the Hispano C-35 - that was superior (at least in the paper...) to both the Boeing 281 (the export version of the famous P-26 "Peashooter") and the aircraft that eventually won the contest, the Hawker Spanish Fury.
The idea of acquiring P.11's was considered after the Civil War broke out, perhaps as a way of bolstering the Republican fighter component. I recall having read some indications pointing towards a P.11 version specially studied for the Spanish market, but atm I am not sure about the exact place where I got this information - must check it!
That notwithstanding, the version recommended to be bought by the Soviet advisors was the last to became operational with the Polish Army air force, the "C" - I mentioned this little known fact elsewhere in anoother thread in the forum. At the same time, the idea of pushing the Spanish Fury (a fighter of which only three examples had been received from Hawkers to serve as pattern for a local production by Hispano) into full production was also forwarded, since the fighter proved itself to be more than a match to the Fiat CR 32's fielded by the Aviazione Legionaria in some solitary fights against the Italian biplanes.
In what regards the old question related to the foreign-only use of the P.24, I think Woj is the right person to ask.

Ruy

This post has been edited by Ruy Aballe on December 10, 2004 12:26 pm

Thanks! And i hope to read many information from you guys - there are some things verry new for me.

Iama

You're welcome! I hope to come by with some Italian info asap, namely on the losses suffered during the Italian campaign. This is for Woj, but I think it can of interest to you too, Iama.
Curiously enough, the CANT Z.1007bis, the most modern bomber used by the Regia Aeronautica during the Greek and Yugoslav campaigns was the one that suffered most, if seems, at the hands of enemy fighters. Besides from several shot down by the Greeks (although I don't know if ALL Z.1007bis' were claimed solely by P.24 pilots - the Greeks also had a handful of Bloch MB 151: at least one of the sleek three-engined bombers was shot down by Stg.E. Smyrniotopoulos, a Bloch pilot, on the 9th of February 1940*), the Royal Yugoslav Air Force also destroyed at least one during the short but violent air fighting that took place during the invasion of Yugoslavia. Narednik (sgt.) Blagoje Grujić, shot down a Z.1007bis bomber from 260a Squadriglia (106o Gruppo, 47o Stormo, 4a Squadra Aerea) flown by s.ten. Giovanni Della Costa, over Mostar on 6 April 1941.

Still on the P.24, I recommend the recent book by Mr. Andrezj Glass: Glass, A - "P.Z.L. P.24 A-G", Kagero, Lublin, 2004. ISBN: 83-89088-33-9

Best regards,

Ruy


*- According to Kristian Runarsson,

His article on the Bloch MB 151, written with the cooperation of Yannis Trypitsis, is a must for anyone seeking information about the air war over the Greece: http://www.brushfirewars.org/aircraft/bloc...h_151_greek.htm

In a try to found some bulgarian info, i found this link http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Styx/4555/ww2.html but is a page un-updated from 1999. You know some links, much better with bulgarian air force in ww2? Preferable a bulgarian one.

Iama

I think this one is better; please check it and gave your opinion: http://www.geocities.com/bulgarian_aviation/

Ruy

Ruy is right - version P.11 fighter offered for Spain even some months before outbreak of the Civil War was P.11c. You can find "c" index in the attached document.

Attached Image

Yes, but that was before! Unfortunately, and in what regards the P.24 (which was also offered in 1935), the copy of the R.L.M. document I own do not provide any indication on the specific version offered.

Now speaking of the P.11, the version recommended to be bought AFTER the Civil War broke out was the very same, the "c". Because it was available, I think. There was no need (or perhaps, more importantly, no time!!) to develop a specific one, just to fulfill any non-extant Spanish requirements.
The Spanish government was desperate to get modern fighters... On the other hand, the Soviet advisors knew pretty well that the set up of the local industry for the production of the Spanish Fury would take too much time and effort, not to mention the fact that the machine-tools had to be transferred to safer places, in Catalonia and in the vicinity of Valencia. The local production of two capable Dutch designs was also started at the SAF-15 facilities, but it came too late: the Fokker C.X (the sole airframe finished in Spain was equipped with a Soviet M-100 engine) and the D.XXI (apparently, one or two D.XXI's were fitted with M-25 radials from I-16's). It is believed that a Spanish prototype of the later flew briefly before the end of the hostilities.

The P.11c could have been a very useful addition to the Republican arsenal. It was superior to anything fielded by the Nationalists and their Italian and German allies (maybe even the nimble CR 32), with the sole exception, of course, of the Bf 109.

Woj, that's an interesting document! By the way, do you have any idea about the P.24 sub-types offered for export to Spain and to Portugal? I know the last case is more vague, but still I have Portuguese documents proving that something was being done by the Polish firm representative in Lisbon, in order to circumvent a possible acquisition of Italian or British fighters...

Ruy

What kind of plane liked to use Count Ciano, Italy's Exterior Minister and Mussolini's son-in-law? One of his hobbies was to be a bomber pilot, and he took part in the bombing of Greece.

This post has been edited by Florin on December 10, 2004 06:24 pm

Possibly a Z.1007bis, as it was used in the campaign and it was the best and most modern bomber in the R.A. inventory. Can check, though.

Ruy

1 november 1940:
"It was to be day of famous names, for at 0835 ten S.79s of the 105 Gruppo Autonomo BT set off to attack Salonika, led by the gruppo commander, Ten Col Galeazzo Ciano ..."
Shores, Cull, Malizia, op. cit., s. 12