PZL vs. ..., In other air force then ARR

Right! Thanks Woj! By the way, please find below the earliest mention concerning the P.24 in the correspondence exchanged between SICIL and the Portuguese Ministério da Guerra (3.01.1933):

Attached Image

Well, I guess that in 1933, this was pretty much true:
"(...) o mais rápido e melhor avião de caça do mundo (405km/h).", from SICIL's document... they describe the P.24 as the fastest and best fighter aircraft in the world. The top performance described is a bit overated, as the max. speed obtained by the P.24/I prototype was 388km/h, still an excellent mark for the early Thirties.
It is also curious to note that the document was written before the actual maiden flight of the first P.24, which took place in May 1933, at Mokotow airfield in Warsaw.
Anyway, and just about an year later, the P.24/II attained a remarkable max. speed of 414km/h.

This post has been edited by Ruy Aballe on December 12, 2004 11:14 am

Breda SAFAT 12.7 m.m. was a nightmare... Not so fiable, and with a low rate of fire, nobody like it. More succesfull was in grounf straffing, because was a heavy MG, with more effect than 7,9 m.m., but in air fights, was inferior.

Iama

To this questions, i add another one:

How performed PZL polish fighters against russian planes?

Iama

Iama,

In first place, I must address your notes on the 12,7mm Breda-SAFAT... In Spain, the weapon was loved by the Italians because it was much effective against the Russian fighters employed by the Republican A.F. than its smaller 7,7mm counterpart (which armed the first CR 32's).
The pilots (both Italians and Spaniards) liked the extra punch provided by the 12,7mm machine-gun. Of course, the sycronization mechanism reduced the fire rate quite considerably - a Portuguese military mission in Spain reported that the synchronized rate of fire of the rifle-calibre Breda-SAFAT was only 450-500 rpm, and this information was further reinforced when the Portuguese Army tested the gun in one of their Gladiators - this happened when the Portuguese army switched the main rifle calibre from .the British .303 round to the German 7,92mm round, together with a steady inclination towards the Axis powers at the end of the Thirties. The first 15 Gladiators received were armed at O.G.M.A. (the main Portuguese aviation factory) with F.N.-Browning machine guns in 7,92, but tests based on the experience gained in the S.C.W. were also made in order to ascertain how good could be a mix of fuselage-mounted 12,7mm Breda-SAFAT's and wing-mounted 7,92mm F.N.-Brownings.
The Breda was found to be reliable, the only problem was the relatively slow rate of fire in the syncron. mode...

There is nothing in the Portuguese and Spanish reports I saw describing the bigger Breda-SAFAT's as a "nightmare", as you put it... Besides, the Spaniards used it later, in their own aircraft, with very good results. The smaller calibre version was used to great extent, though.
To my knowledge, the last aircraft to use Breda mgs was the jet trainer and light attacker Hispano-Aviación HA 200 Saeta and its dedicated ground attack derivative, the HA 220: as a matter of fact, the 7,7 mm version remained operational in Spanish service at least until 1981, when the Hispano HA-220 Super Saetas were retired from the Ejército del Aire inventory. The Breda-SAFAT had been adopted for the Saeta when the locally-developed Spanish CETME 12,7 mm machine gun proved too heavy and unreliable. The Breda-SAFAT was capable of 800 to 900 rpm in this installation, but it held only 200 rounds.
The 7.7 mm Breda-SAFAT was also installed as an internal wing gun on T-6D trainers that were modified into single-seat light attack aircraft (the Spanish designation of the attack version was C.6, while that of the trainer was E.16) for use in Morocco.
More on your questions later.
Woj, you should help here too!
La revedere!

Ruy

To this questions, i add another one:

How performed PZL polish fighters against russian planes?

Iama

P.11d project was never realized. I have seen at least some thousands documents during my archival research, but I have never seen information about P.11d. There aren't any mentions about P.11d in the newest Polish literature.
P.24 was never used by Polish AF, because:
1. P.24s aircrafts were too popular abroad. ;-))) There were at least two cases in the P.24s career when these aircrafts could be purchased by Polish AF. First time, in the first months of 1936, P.24s fighters, ready for Polish service, were sold to Bulgaria. Second time - in autumn 1936 - were delivered to Turkey.
2. Problems with engines. Commanders of Polish AF didn't accept engines produced abroad. And in P.24s were used French-built GR engines.

There weren't too many fights between Polish and Soviet fighters in September 1939. During 17 September two I-16 (or - perhaps - I-16 and I-153) fighters were damaged in small "air battle" with P.11 near Rokitno Wolynskie. Polish fighter was damaged by third Soviet plane and crushed during landing near Sarny. In the same day two SB-2 bombers were shot down, and third damaged. Between 4 pm and 5 pm most of Polish fighters crossed Romanian border.

This post has been edited by woj on December 13, 2004 10:12 pm

Ruy,

What i sayed, was from memory - some time ago i read some comparation between ww2 aircraft weapons. Maybe my imperfect english is the problem, in translating text, but speaking only from the source with data of airplane guns, i concluded a thing - Breda SAFAT was not on the first places.
Of course, punch of a 0.50 caliber is not the same of one of 0.303. The effect was good, but japanese who used the same projectile (*Vickers i think*) obtained faster rate of fire. And not te same performance like russian or US mg's.

I accept ther error - with "nightmare" thing...

I dont know it about CETME mg. About CETMe i know about assault rifle with good performance - but this is after ww2, some off-topic.

Ah! Good i dont forget... "Scotti" italian mg - a model superior to Breda SAFAT 0.50, was used in Spanish War?

Iama

Back on topic - becauze topic is "PZL", lets include bombers in discution. I read some articles with romanian use of PZL, some problems with "unknowing the plane".. But, polish crews, who were certified for use of them, i think was more autorized to apreciate the PZL bombers. How did they perform in war?

Iama

Woj, i found on the net an artcile by Leszek Erenfeicht, and a some like a list:

"The PAF claim to have shot down during a three-week air combat over Poland a total of 147 German and one Polish (a PZL 23B light bomber mistaken for a Stuka due to similar landing gear fairing arrangement) aircraft, of these 10 were Bf 109s, 13 Bf 110s, 10 Ju 86s, 17 Ju 87 Stukas, 30 Do 17s, 44 He 111s, 15 Hs 126s, 1 He 45 and 7 unidentified. German sources state 283 aircraft were lost due to the PAF, flak and accidents, but offer no further details as to how each plane was lost. The PAF lost 118 fighter planes, of these 32 were to German fighters, 10 to bomber crews, 7 each to both German and Polish flak, 4 on airfields to bombing raids, and 58 lost due to accidents, destroyed by the ground crews due to lack of fuel and spare parts, overrun at the fields by the enemy ground troops etc.

After the Sept 17, 1939 USSR invasion, the PAF also fought the Soviet Air Force. Six Soviet aircraft were shot down, of these two were SB-2 medium bombers, two I-153 Chaika fighters, one I-16 Rata fighter and one R-5 recce aircraft, together with one I-153 fighter damaged beyond repair, before on September 19, 1939 fighting the Bolsheviks was forbidden unless in self-defence. No data is available on the losses of the PAF due to Soviet AF."

I think fighters were PZL P11, but what about bombers aircraft lost?

Iama

Iama,

There is no indication whatsoever telling us that the Scotti mg was used during the S.C.W. Maybe some prototypes made it to Spain, but I can't really be sure. But it was used on turret mounts during the II W.W. in most Italian bombers, such as the CANT Z.1007bis, some BR. 20bis ane even on lesser known aircraft like the Caproni Ca. 313/314.
The CETME heavy mg I mentioned was a post-war development, but it was found to be a bit too heavy for use in a small aircraft like the Saeta. The Bredas were available in big quantities and were highly regarded by the Spaniards, so it is no wonder to verify that the Italian gun soldiered on over the dusty Moroccan expenses... Besides, the lower rate of fire in sycronized mode was of no concern in a jet!
The 12,7mm version was also successfully used in the nose of the C.2.111 (the Spanish-made He-111's produced by CASA after the war) for strafing purposes... again firing through an "open" area, free of any constraints imposed by the syncronization gear. And nobody complained (except, probably, the Moroccans themselves!...).

Returning to S.C.W. period, both sides agreed that the most effective small calibre mg around was the Soviet ShKAS in 7,62x54R calibre. This is proved by the fact the it was seriously considered for local production in the immediate post-Civil War era (in typical reverse-engineering operation), as it was viewed as a superlative rifle-calibre aerial gun. The very high rate of fire wore the barrel rifling quickly and thus the Spanish arsenals begun producing spare barrels for the ShKAS shortly after the end of the Civil War, as, of course, 7,62x54R ammunition (produced at the state arsenal in Oviedo) needed to feed those guns and the huge quantities of Mosin M.1891-30 rifles left behind by the defeated Republicans.
However, I was unable to disclose whether complete, reverse-engineered local copies of the ShKAS were actually built, a doubt shared by the noted historian Juan Arráez Cerdá, with whom me and my friend and co-author José Miguel Sales exchanged opinions regarding this topic.
Cheers,

Ruy

I find your addition to "Flying Guns World War II" at Gustin Emmanuel site. You also are implied in graphic?

Iama

Woj, after i read info's about Poland, and after i discovered on the net John Baxter books (unfortunately i see just some cover pics and small info) - one of them with alternate history of the Luftwaffe - i asked mysself if someone tryed to write an alternative history of Poland, with new prototypes now as standard.
You know about something like this?
Poland had prototypes of new armoured vechicles - tanks?

Iama

Iama,

As for the graphic, I'm not implied in it.

No, unfortunately that addition was born of a discussion which actually took place after the book was published. It was a pity, because I found some interesting data (including test reports - that was when I also found material on the P.Z.L. attempts to sell aircraft in Portugal and Spain) in Ávila and Lisbon.

Will return later with some P.Z.L. information.

Ruy

Iama - sorry for so long silence. I should ask some your questions - but I have to find more free time.
If you ask: of course, problem "what if?" is popular in Poland not less in any other country. There is a lot of discussions in Polish forums - unfortunately just in Polish. It is unteresting, that in Polish opinion something like IAR.80 would be the best solution for our AF.
If you like, you can see:
http://www.drugawojnaswiatowa.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5145 (Polish figters vs Germans in September '39)
http://www.drugawojnaswiatowa.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5403 (P.11f)
http://www.drugawojnaswiatowa.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5071 (problems with engines for new Polish fighters)
http://www.drugawojnaswiatowa.org/forum/vi...?t=4794&start=0 (P.62 project)
http://www.drugawojnaswiatowa.org/forum/vi...?t=1317&start=0 (long discussion about Los)
http://www.drugawojnaswiatowa.org/forum/vi...?t=3862&start=0 (poish export aircrafts)
http://www.przestworzadws.netlook.pl/viewt...cefc7febd2a108e (how Polish aeronautical constructions should be realized in 30's - "what if" topic)
http://www.przestworzadws.netlook.pl/viewt...cefc7febd2a108e (why Polish AF was so weak)
and so on, and so on....

Polish language is hard to learn?

Maybe i find a solution, maybe someone from that forum give me some help, and we see...

Thanks,

Iama