P-38 Ploesti Bombing in Aftermath of Tidalwave

Could this be the reason why US fighter pilots were shooting at romanian parachutes or strafing crashlanded planes ? If they knew they were actually aiming romanian bailed out pilots would they have still shot ?

I think so. For example, some US pilots strafed pilots hanging on parachute, or crash landed airplanes in Hungary, too. For them, all enemy in Central and Eastern Europe was a Nazi, or a Kraut.

Col. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on December 15, 2004 07:07 pm

As I understood, you implied that the I.A.R. 80 was better than the Bf 109E at low altitude in combat. That's why I listed the main parameters what would prove that, in my opinion, the Bf 109E was superior to the '80 in that respect, too.

A very good pilot in a less performant airplane has good chances to outmanoeuver and eventually shot down a green pilot flying a superior airplane type. See, for example, I-153 shooting down Bf 109E or He 112 in 1941.

Well, I checked the list of Rumanian '80/'81 pilots shot down on Sept 23-25, 1944 by Luftwaffe '109Gs over Transylvania:
Adj. av Bouru+, 2 kills, 4 victories.
Adj. av. Tifrea {seriously wounded}: 6 kills, 15 victories.
Adj. av. Georgescu+: no kills.
Adj. av. Mazilu {seriously wounded}: 5 kills + 2 shared, 10+ victories.
Adj. sef av. Androne+: 1 kill, 1 victory.
Slt. av. Secicar+: 1 kill, 2 victories.
Lt. av. Ivancievici+: 4 kills + 3 shared, 11 victories.
Slt. av. Mihailescu+: 2 kills, 4 victories.
[+ means killed in action]

Not exactly rookies, I'd say...

Col. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on December 16, 2004 12:52 am

Denes

I am little or not at all aware and puzzled that allied pilots ,as you cite Americans would open fire on pilots or airmen hangging on their chutes and intentionally do something that the Germans become famous for on Ukraine, Belorus and Russian fronts and Japs on the Pacific., deliberately violate Geneva treaty.....of course there could have been some isolated cases " lash outs cases" by those pilots who had " open bills " with the Fritzs,Italians and Roumanians and by the Russians who were justified to do so as the Germans have self appointed themselselves as rulers in a country they had no buisness to do with and have commited somany atrocities ......I was in touch with many vets pilots such as P.Gabresky and friends of Zemkes Wolf Pack but also with E.Hartmann prior hos death and with G.Rall at Condeferate AF...I hear it for the first time that American pilots all of a sudden and after 61 years be promoted as Luftwaffe and Royal Japanese Air Force and Naval pilots....which I think is a rather an unfair blame and exagerated remark towards those who liberated Europe from the tirany of the Nazzies and Fascist axis forces......including Roumania which generally speaking was a pro Western country prior the war and suffered so much from the Nazzies...and enabled people like Anna Pauker , Georghiu Dej and Ceausescu supported by Stalin regime to bring an other type of Tirany into Roumania.

Ultimately, Italians and Roumanians Air and Land Forces as a majority, who historically were NOT convinced fascists and Nazzies but were dragged into the Adolfs games by criminals and rulers like Antonescu and Musolinni who deserve along with all war criminals the to get executed again ... couldn't expected any priviliges or any better treatment than the Fritzs and Japs got...because after all they were part of the deal and none asked them to join Hitler and his sickenning 3rd Reich .

Finally the allied forces didn't start the war and didn't invade Roumania...so how could someone possibly expect that those who started the war and commited somany atrocities get a privilleged treatment ? On the Roumanian Army forum on here...I keep reading nostalgic theories that Antonescu was a nice and decent guy and was unfairly treated....... Roumania in self defense attacked Soviet Union......political and relligious attrocities were never commited by no one and the moon landing was a fake......... well let me tell those who accuse the Americans of having been an unfair player that , if I were in the skies of WWII and lost my mates in a war that was started by a bounch of criminals, I wouldnt have given those forces who started the war and brought so much misery , pain and loss into the world any better treatment than they already got maybe even worse, period !


Al

This post has been edited by alexkdl on December 16, 2004 07:20 am

***edited by moderator***
Your words hit some things hard. In some, you have right, but in others you don't. An this, just because you don't understand well enough some things - just because you are not from here. It is a stereotipilcall thing: albanian guys, all ex. - yugoslavian guys, iraqian now, etc. - it is hard to understand people who are stangers to you. All of us (nations), we have different ways of thinking...
And in some things, you are well informed. Gheorghiu Dej had a big merit - he obtained more liberty against Soviets Union, and obtained a Romania with no russian, less politrucs, consiliers, red army, spy, "sovrom-uri", etc.
After that, a new leader was elected - Nicolae Ceausescu, a young one with a lot of courage to counter russian ways, one of the few who have the courage to make some oposition against Moskva.

"Finally the allied forces didn't start the war and didn't invade Roumania...so how could someone possibly expect that those who started the war and commited somany atrocities get a privilleged treatment ?"
"Roumania in self defense attacked Soviet Union" - now, in more modern history is a specific expression - "preemtive strike" and is used, whitout many explanations. And let me tell you a thing - i respect, no - I RESPECT nations like Csechoslovakia and Poland who fight against Hitler. I take my hat of, in front of Poland who had based more for UK and France, and dont obtained too much- even this nations opened the war against Germany. And you know? In that period we want to fight against russian when we lost Bessarabia. But, We were encircled. What hope? We see what was happend to Poland, and other countryes. A new map, whitout Romania? In our history, a lot of us we dye for independence, for unity, for Romania. At that time, was a good alternative. The only one. The much less bad thing for us - to join in alliance with who offered a thing - to regain a part of our teritory.
What happend, if Stalin dont take from us Bessarabia, and at a momment give us the coiche to regain Transilvania? Maybe, like in reality, we choose to make alliance with who offered something - to regain our borders.


"well let me tell those who accuse the Americans of having been an unfair player that , if I were in the skies of WWII and lost my mates in a war that was started by a bounch of criminals, I wouldnt have given those forces who started the war and brought so much misery , pain and loss into the world any better treatment than they already got maybe even worse, period !"

At this, i agree with you in second part.

Now, lets get back in discution more to topic, because are more productive, and dont upset anybody. I apreciate your posts, and keep it on the line.

Iama

P.S. - Is not a message with any link to Denes (you adressed to him). It is my comments against some contents of your post.

SIR

I RED YOUR COMMENTS ABOUT US ARMED FORCES IN WWII I THINK ALEX HAD A POINT AND I AM WELL AWARE ABOUT THE ISSUE, THE PURPOSE OF ANY FORUM IS FOR PEOPLE TO EXPRESS THEIR OWN FREEDOM OF THINKING AND IT LOOKS TO ME THAT HE'S TOUCHED A NERVE SIR.......IS DOES GIVE YOU THE RIGHT TO REFLECT YOUR OWN POINT OF VIEW BUT IT DOESNT MEAN IT WILL BE OBJECTIVE BUT SUBJECTIVE....AND PERSONALLY IF YOU DON'T FEEL OK ABOUT HIS COMMENT WHICH BTW I FULLY AGREE WITH IT , THAN KEEP THE OPINIONS FOR YOURSELF SIR AND DONT ATTEMPT POISON THE REST OF THE VIEWS !!!

SORRY , THAT'S MY OWN OPINION AND DON'T TAKE IT PERSONAL...AND BY THE WAY YOU REPEATEDLY HAVE ENGLISH LANGUAGE ERRORS .....YOU NEED TO STATE " YOU HAVE A POISONED TONGUE"

[LIberandoPaul has been banned, being just another avatar of member alexkdl]

This post has been edited by Victor on January 04, 2006 09:09 am

[/QUOTE]Well, I checked the list of Rumanian '80/'81 pilots shot down on Sept 23-25, 1944 by Luftwaffe '109Gs over Transylvania:
Adj. av Bouru+, 2 kills, 4 victories.
Adj. av. Tifrea {seriously wounded}: 6 kills, 15 victories.
Adj. av. Georgescu+: no kills.
Adj. av. Mazilu {seriously wounded}: 5 kills + 2 shared, 10+ victories.
Adj. sef av. Androne+: 1 kill, 1 victory.
Slt. av. Secicar+: 1 kill, 2 victories.
Lt. av. Ivancievici+: 4 kills + 3 shared, 11 victories.
Slt. av. Mihailescu+: 2 kills, 4 victories.
[+ means killed in action]

Not exactly rookies, I'd say...

Col. Dénes [QUOTE]

Yes but you didn't list the german pilots victories.
And anyway 1 to 6 planes shot down ( with out a gun camera omologated) doesn't means that they are a good pilots. We know that for propaganda reason the claims are exagerated from all sides.
Adj.Chera said in his memoires in the fight on 23 september'44 most of the IAR pilots were attacked by surprise by bf-109's and he and Lt.Baciu ( indeed not rooky pilots) managed both to score hits to germans and later Chera had to fight with two Bf-109 and he said he had to spin to the ground where his IAR has an advantage of maneuvrability over the 109 and managed to shot one. ( from the book IAR 80 -istoria unui erou necunoscut -Antoniu and Cicos.

I red your comment and I am mistified on the stuff you wrote . It shows you didn't go through my messages board nor are adequate on the subects. While I thank you for promoting me as an Iranian , Iraqui , Abanian or Jugoslavian and some one who don't understand your nation ....I got to tell you I am none of these you reffered me to , and military aviation history but also general military history are one of my strengths including the political structure of Roumania after WWII and till today, just because partially you don't agree with my views, reflections and knowledge it doesn't give the right to get personal....I would rather suggest you to simply ignore my posts if they upset you . Unlike the other guy who critized you about your English language skills, I won't and I won't call you a Iranian, Turk or Albanian .

Secondly, I am native Roumanian and I understand a hell of a lot more than you think...so please don't give me this .

Finally if I answered a topic that Denes was also dealing with and it was not personally adressed to him nor was meant to attack anyone , should he and if he's upset or he's not OK with it, let him speak his mind out though no need for you to speak on his name or assume his defense.,..let him deal with it .....I will be happy to respond him.

Last but not least, like someone else who just wrote you on here before , this forum is about freedom of speach and world of free opinions and I dont think you have a point getting personal just because you don't agree with my topics , so if it's upsets , please have my million appologies and kindly ignore my messages next time and respond someone else topics rather mines.

I think I made my point clear

This post has been edited by alexkdl on December 16, 2004 08:58 am

Im sorry for my bad english. I dont learn english in school.
About the rest, it was my opinion. Even you say "THE PURPOSE OF ANY FORUM IS FOR PEOPLE TO EXPRESS THEIR OWN FREEDOM OF THINKING ".
And finally, was not an invitation to "duel" for Alex or for you. Was just an opinion. You are so sensibile? I say just some explanations, i dont take out my sword...

Enough! I feel sorry for my previous post. It was not intended to explode.

Iama (dont use "sir")

P.S. - You had a good entrance...
are you happy enough?

And send me on "PM" links to my comments, if you want, and we comment them in this way.

I reading your article and this of the Alex. I understand Alex point but I don't understand yours ? What do you sugeststi?

Forgive my english because is not so good , I am from Roumania and my duty is to be based at Mihail Cogalnicianu Air Defense Base not far from Mamaia and I since many years working officer ( Locotenent Colonel) on Roumanian Air Defense Force....maybe i sould say I am also in Roumanian Army and I think my understanding of Roumanian military system is not realy bad( suficient)

You consider G.Dej , Ceausescu as Roumanian heros ? I don not think so, Alex is right !!! Dej ploted the executions of several ministers in Roumania between 1947-1953 who was in same prison with Dej til 1944 and was good friends with him,he was pro Stalin who was a criminal like hitler and gived favour to Hrusctshov because had no other option in 1963. He gave order to arest Anna Pauker who was in prison with him in 1938-1940 and which was his best friend. After that Pauker was ended out of Rumanian governmnet until she died in .She was rehabiliate much later.

Also about aviation history you dont make any clear point .....the fact that you stamp Alex as Iranian it has no influenza over your aviation point at all. I was reading other remarks and to me is clear people read with interest what he write, but I think you have a problem and that is you not Alex .

Mircea
PS: ce inseamna drapelul Sovietic la Dumneavostra?

[DIVISIONER was banned because it was yet another avatar of alexkdl]

This post has been edited by Victor on January 04, 2006 09:11 am

Guys please calm down :/

Alex, I said about the romanian bailed out pilots strafed in their chutes and the crashlanded romanian pilots who got similar treatment.I said it because it puzzled me for a long time.It was not just a singular case when this thing happend so ofcourse I wondered what is wrong, why would US pilots hate so much romanian piltos and do such things, now after reading even more and also keeping an eye on this forum, I think I found an explanation: US pilots were not actually aware they were strafing romanian pilots defending their own country but german or italian pilots.

I noticed that many times in this forum people would rather jump at each other's throat rather then clear up issues, unfortunatelly it is a "defect" I noticed on most romanian boards, "we are all wise and more clever then the other one posting in here and I will put my foot in your mouth to prove it" - maybe it is just my opinion and I am wrong.But I sure wish to see more unity and solving matters in a civilized way.

Sorry for being off-topic.

IN FUTURE, I DON'T INTERFER WITH YOUR POSTS

Happy enough?
Verry good for others with good english.

What i want to say was ... it is hard to understand a nation at a momment in history, like in events like in Albania, Yugoslavia, Irak (in this days). This was the stereotipicall thing - is just hard to undestand some action of a nation in a time in history (ex. - Romania in Axis). Im sorry- "Nu am vrut sa se inteleaga asa ceva." I think, in romanian sounds better, and my appologies are well understand.
And about comunists leaders, i want to say just he make some good things. I never say something about Pauker. And, please read that segment again, maybe now...
"Gheorghiu Dej had a big merit - he obtained more liberty against Soviets Union, and obtained a Romania with no russian, less politrucs, consiliers, red army, spy, "sovrom-uri", etc.
After that, a new leader was elected - Nicolae Ceausescu, a young one with a lot of courage to counter russian ways, one of the few who have the courage to make some oposition against Moskva."
Well, it seems to me like no words to give "heroic" function... Just some good things. Like - "in Adolf Hitler time was constructed the Autobahn, and were some breaktrough in science". Oh, my God... This means Hitler was an angel? "Of! Of!Of!" ...

And sincerly, my post was concentrated on this fragment:

" "Finally the allied forces didn't start the war and didn't invade Roumania...so how could someone possibly expect that those who started the war and commited somany atrocities get a privilleged treatment ?"
"Roumania in self defense attacked Soviet Union" - now, in more modern history is a specific expression - "preemtive strike" and is used, whitout many explanations. And let me tell you a thing - i respect, no - I RESPECT nations like Csechoslovakia and Poland who fight against Hitler. I take my hat of, in front of Poland who had based more for UK and France, and dont obtained too much- even this nations opened the war against Germany. And you know? In that period we want to fight against russian when we lost Bessarabia. But, We were encircled. What hope? We see what was happend to Poland, and other countryes. A new map, whitout Romania? In our history, a lot of us we dye for independence, for unity, for Romania. At that time, was a good alternative. The only one. The much less bad thing for us - to join in alliance with who offered a thing - to regain a part of our teritory.
What happend, if Stalin dont take from us Bessarabia, and at a momment give us the coiche to regain Transilvania? Maybe, like in reality, we choose to make alliance with who offered something - to regain our borders." "

But you, guys, ignored this sgement... and take your swords out for battle. Easy to make this, no? "Iranians"... where? But lets have peace. Sorry again, if this thing help. SORRY!

Iama

P.S. - About about "drapelul Sovietic", i will send you a pesonal message with explanations. OK? Because, it is time to let topic go in her way.
Sorry again. I just commented a segment of a post, like others commented mine. It is a discussion forum, no?

Iamandi, if you don't agree with someone, don't insult them. This is a warning. Next time you will be baned for a week to think about it.

Let's get back on topic.

I don't think that Alex deserve this
He contribute a lot to this forum since he joined and he seems a reasonable
person to me.
Let's keep this kind of disscusion to the "genaral dis."

I thought we were talking about the Rumanian pilots, not the Germans.

Anyhow, the most proficient Luftwaffe pilot over Transylvania, in September 1944, was Uffz. Tammen of II./JG 52, who shot down 10 Rumanian airplanes, had only 5 victories prior he would shot down his first ARR victim. So, compared to his colleagues, he indeed was quite a "rookie".

As for pilots' memoirs - and generally memories written well after the actual events - have to be regarded with a certain degree of caution, as the elapse of time tends to distort the accuracy of one's memory.

Col. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on December 17, 2004 03:23 am