Who started WW2

My My My, I could let the reply blank, because it doesn't matter what I write, the answer is still the same: you are wrong...

I won't repeat myself because I already explained some of your counterarguments, like Poland being an ally (it wasn't) of GB and France, Germany starting the WW2 (just the Polish war)...

Just two more things: a)if you are bringing the internal affairs of Germany into this international act (I already heard the holocaust stereotype, so your examples are quite mediocre), well I could also bring the british concentration camps in South Africa (of course, there were no such things, but anything that could win me an argument, right? ) The allies made very clear that they would defend anything, this doesn't mean that they should be believed. If you managed to doublecross at Munchen, well don't expect anyone to buy your threats anymore...

Just understand one thing: the thread is called who started ww2? not who is guilty? Wars are not in my opinion something to be guilty about.

Has it occurred to you that you might, indeed, _be_ wrong?

Take for example your most bizarre statement in this post, that Poland and France and Great Britain weren't allies. Has it occurred to you that those countries signed official documents? Stating exactly that? And that the documents are available on-line where anybody (including yourself!) can read them? I paste a snippet of one of the treaties below, so that you can see for yourself that, indeed, you _are_ wrong. Utterly.
It may be ignorance or bad faith, of course. Orwell comes to mind - war is peace, etc. Or should I quote the theorist of the "big lie"?

As to dragging the Holocaust in, I wasn't the one who did that. _You_ did that. _You_ wrote "Execute Hitler for the Holocaust, but not for starting a war!" Anyway, claiming that the Holocaust was Germany's "internal affair" is pathetic.

Yes, the thread is titled "who started WWII". If we leave aside the tricky question of what was happening in China, the answer is obvious: Germany did. It did not just start a war with Poland. I'll of course admit that was Hitler hoped; he hoped the French and British would cave in. I'm beginning to understand that that is what you wished they had done, too. They didn't cave in, and good for them and for us.

Now read and learn. Remember, there's plenty more to quote if you want. You _are_ wrong. Acknowledge that and you'll somewhat limit your loss of face.

Agreement of Mutual Assistance between the United Kingdom and Poland.-London, August 25, 1939.
THE Government of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the Polish Government:
Desiring to place on a permanent basis the collaboration between their respective countries resulting from the assurances of mutual assistance of a defensive character which they have already exchanged:
Have resolved to conclude an Agreement for that purpose and have appointed as their Plenipotentiaries:
The Government of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland:
The Rt. Hon. Viscount Halifax, K.G., G.C.S.I., G.C.I.E., Principal Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs;
The Polish Government:
His Excellency Count Edward Raczynski, Ambassador Extraordinary and Plenipotentiary of the Polish Republic in London;
Who, having exchanged their Full Powers, found in good and due form, have agreed following provisions:-
ARTICLE I.
Should one of the Contracting Parties become engaged in hostilities with a European Power in consequence of aggression by the latter against that Contracting Party, the other Contracting Party will at once give the Contracting Party engaged in hostilities all the support and assistance in its power.

Interestingly, this 1st Article didn't specifically name Germany as the sole "European Power" who may committ aggression against Poland, thus the treaty is directed against. Therefore, the question that has been arosen earlier: "why then the UK didn't declare war also on the Soviet Union (and Slovakia, for that matter)?" is still unanswered.

Gen. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on February 01, 2005 04:51 pm

Bah. It was answered I don't know how many times but I will do it again.

The UK did not declare war on the Soviet Union in order to keep at least a chance to win the war.

They made the obvious and wise decision. They had to cut their losses and stay in the game. Going down in flames would not have benefited the democratic nations.

This post has been edited by Chandernagore on February 01, 2005 10:54 pm

Bah, Chandy. The question was not answered so clear and concise.
Just another case of Realpolitik, isn't it?

Gen. Dénes

Cehoslovacia was at the time of Munchen the sole democracy in Eastern and Central Europe but it was murdered with the help of the so-called benefactors of democracy, the Allied Powers. So please excuse me if I seem to ignore the Allied good will.

As for the neclarities in Curioso's post (including the fact that he hadn't read the whole thread, speaking only about the last reply), I won't acknowledge a certain affinity for Germany and a distrust in the democratic way of conducting international relations. But please get this: a) Germany did not declare war on a giant alliance, only on Poland which had a guarantee from UK, not from France How come France entered the war? As an UK ally?

Cehoslovacia was at the time of Munchen the sole democracy in Eastern and Central Europe but it was murdered with the help of the so-called benefactors of democracy, the Allied Powers. So please excuse me if I seem to ignore the Allied good will.

As for the neclarities in Curioso's post (including the fact that he hadn't read the whole thread, speaking only about the last reply), I won't acknowledge a certain affinity for Germany and a distrust in the democratic way of conducting international relations. But please get this: a) Germany did not declare war on a giant alliance, only on Poland which had a guarantee from UK, not from France How come France entered the war? As an UK ally?

I don't know what you mean by "neclarities". This is an English-language forum, try to explain yourself. If you are sure it's worth our time.

You don't explicitly acknowledge you were utterly wrong about the British-Polish alliance, but I'm glad to see you don't try to challenge that in any way - in other words, you implicitly acknowledge you were utterly wrong about that. Thank you.

The choice for democracy is not a choice about the way to do foreign relations. It is a choice about what you think men are. If you agree with Germany's government system of 1933-1945 that men are faceless tin soldiers gloriously following their superhuman leader into a big mass grave, then I'm afraid we have little to say to each other.

As to your final question, by asking it you admit I know more than you about the issue; while I'm flattered for that, I have to advise you against discussing things you know so very, very little about. France and Poland were military allies since 1921, so I thought even you did not need a quote for that - it was such a well-known fact that I thought even you were informed about it. Instead, you weren't - but now you are. Better late than never.
Germany entered war against one country, right. That country was allied with two other countries. Germany hoped they would renege their obligations; they didn't. On September 2, Germany could have pulled out from Poland and in so doing it would have avoided war against France and Great Britain; it chose not to. The unmistakable conclusion is: who started WWII (in Europe)? Germany.

I hope everything's clear to you now.

Interestingly, this 1st Article didn't specifically name Germany as the sole "European Power" who may committ aggression against Poland, thus the treaty is directed against. Therefore, the question that has been arosen earlier: "why then the UK didn't declare war also on the Soviet Union (and Slovakia, for that matter)?" is still unanswered.

Gen. Dénes

Of course the question is answered, and both in this very sub-forum, not long ago, and in this same thread. Read my posts in this thread and in the topic titled "Why UK & France dont declared war to russians?".

This post has been edited by Curioso on February 02, 2005 03:43 pm

"neclarities" is Romglish for vagueness.

Is "Romglish" a real word? Like Spanglish?

Even if it's not, I like it.

Oh. Thanks. So I suppose the vagueness was the fact that I gave for granted that nobody would ignore the long-standing French-Polish alliance. It was dated 1921; I hope everything is less vague now.

France & England so toroughly beat the crap out of each other during the hundred years war and then the Napoleonic wars that, thereafter, they could no longer do annything without the other half's approval

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/orgs/british...ea-declares-war

Hi Denes,

I have answered that question several times on Feldgrau.

The Anglo-Polish agreement had a Secret Protocol that defined the terms used in the agreement. The first article of the Secret Protocol specifies Germany as the European power concerned.

Unfortunately, the full text of the Anglo-Polish agreement, including the Secret Protocol, does not seem to appear on the internet anywhere.

Britain had obligations to Poland only regarding Germany.

Cheers,

Sid.

Hi Guys,

Article 1 of the Agreement of Mutual Assistance between Britain and Poland of 25 August 1939 stated:

"Should one of the Contracting Parties become engaged in hostilities with a European Power in consequence of aggression by the latter against that Contracting Party, the other Contracting Party will at once give the Contracting Party engaged in hostilities all the support and assistance in its power."

Article 1 (a) of the Secret Protocol of the same agreement stated:

"By the expression "a European Power" employed in the Agreement is to be understood Germany"

Cheers,

Sid.

P.S. The full text is on pp.190-191 of "The Major International Treaties 1914-1973" by J. A. S. Grenville (London, 1974).