Antonescu the Warrior

Not only Jews were slautherd by the nazis.Also gypsies.

Domnule Emilcernauti,

I just wat to say that was a grerat surprise to find my name in your very first message. Maybe you are upset on me becouse I use the Michael Cross as the sign ... please, don t be. Under this sign many romanian soldiers died with honour and bravery, sincerely thinking that they give their lives for motherland. We can say the same thing for many german, hungarian, finish soldiers. In acourding with your logic, all members of romanian army or of Wehrmacht or Honvedseg were nothing but criminals ..

I will not answer to your poll becouse is somehow tendencious. Antonescu was a man of his time. Maybe he is responsable for crimes and, under his rule and folowing his general orders, many jewish people was killed. May God rest them in peace.
But also its true that, in a specific moment, he save Romania and he give us the hope and the strenght to fight for our country.

What can you expect from me, as a romanian ? To ignore my history and to blame a romanian ruller for his sins, without any consideration for his anchievements?

I m far away from any form of extremistic atitude (including here the anti-semitism, by the way I have a few jewish friends, israelian citizens) but I don t think that is rigt to see how somebody want to force me (somehow) to have a specific poit of view about my history. You see, the history is not black or white .... lets dont talk about how many innocent lives was tooken by israelian army in palestine. Are they criminals? Yes or no ? How do you want to answer to this questiuon? I repeat, im against any kind of violence but lets talk here like a could brain owners ... not in emotional way.

I cannot think that you don t notice our intention and efforts (i dare to talk in the name of the majority of this forum) to find out the historical truth.

PAX VOBISCUM !

This post has been edited by Dan Po on January 23, 2005 11:24 pm

Successful.

The question was mine, and I expressed it because I do not agree with opinion of emilcernauti that Romania's entering the war was unreasonable. Maybe it was a poor choice of adjective on his behalf, but I would use this adjective for the Soviet aggression of 1940, not for Romania that was trying to right an injustice.

The tragedy of Romania was that she was cought in the middle of interests of two totalitarian powers, between Scylla and Charybdis. There was no "right side" in that part of Europe, and Romania entered the war together with Germany, but not for the same reasons as Germany. As Victor said, we have to consider the circumstances of that moment, and back then this seemed the only hope Romania had to regain the lost territories.

Without the benefit of the hindsight, Antonescu did well by aligning Romania with Germany. Consider this:

a) With Germany: Russia is the only enemy and the Wehrmacht was steamrolling every army, so...
With Russia: Germany and two neighbouring Axis countries (Hungary and Bulgaria) with a grudge against us...

Sorry I missed something. Anyway my answer was half a bad joke. Stalin's Russia was world class bully.

The problem in the region is that everybody was trying to right injustices. And even those who succeeded were only setting up themselves for a bigger downfall...

True, but today it is well known each side reasons and motivation, so we can discuss better than putting everybody into the same pot.

Do not forget about Trotzki and Kamenski in Russia.

Hmmm, let's do not forget also Ana Pauker, Emil Bodnaras, Walter Roman and many others that came on Russian tanks and spread peace and love in Romania.

Do not forget the dead Russian civilians and soldiers... They were few millions. But who cares about them? (This is just a rethoric question)

Didn't you miss something about the German Karl Marx for example?

As for this phrase:

No comment... They were really naive to obey orders...


The Holocaust was one of the blackest pages in world's history. Some Humans desqualified themselves as Humans... I hope the world will never forget those crimes.

This post has been edited by johnny_bi on February 04, 2005 10:17 pm

Didn't you miss something about the German Karl Marx for example?

I don't know if he missed something about the German Karl Marx, but the German Karl Marx was definately missing something..



This post has been edited by Der Maresal on January 26, 2005 05:34 am

Karl Marx was born on May 5, 1818, in the city of Trier in the Rhine Province of Prussia (now Germany). His mother, Herietta Pressburg, was from Holland and like Karl's father, was Jewish. His father (or his mother - I do not recall exactely) was the descendent of a long line of rabbis.


Do not misunderstand me... I want to point the fact that one can not give only a "white" list but also has to provide a "grey" one...
Every nation has a "white" list and a "grey" or even "black" list... One can not be proud only about the "white" list but has to take into consideration the "grey" one also...

This post has been edited by johnny_bi on January 27, 2005 12:38 am

I wana put my opinion on here too, a subject which is not in my area of interest not as former AF carrer officer , not as historian nor as a Roumanian citizen( which I am not) just as a simple person who lives in a German speaking country and who knows the German mentality than many others on here who claim of knowing it .

I want to agree with Dragos and Victor that Roumania was cought in conflict of interests....just because Hohenzollern put their stamp on Rumanian soil by no means I can agree with anyone who may say that Rumanian having smilar life customs and mentalitiy like the Germans, Austrians or Swiss or were ever in brootherhood with them like Austrians , Swiss and Croats who commited war attrocities out of their firm sick believes and pleasure .

I also don't think that Rumania had something to share with the Russians but they had to pay their bill to the Russians for invading Russian soil with the Germans, Italian, Spanish, Kroats, French etc and by conducting a war which was NOT one of their own , and by being partners to the atrocities commited by the Germans in Russian territory........where they had no business at !

While I find it bizare that pools on here would call Antonescu a hero or conclude that he did right what he did and this after 65 years of more when now Rumania became a full partner with US, NATO even Israel....here is what I gonna say as bizare as it may sound

I was born in Rumania in a Jewish family, my whole family were not the typical jews you on here heard of or may have known , I had two uncles captains in the Rumanian Army ( both jews) my dad was deported during Antonescu for 2 months camp work somewhere in Roumania than released unscaved . My family would not be touched by Germans nor by Antonescu system nor by Iron Guards.....basically what I wana say is that thanks to Antonescu pact with the Germans, many jewish lives were saved because Antonescu wanted to keep the intellectual jewish work force in Roumania and not have them terminated at Auschwitz ..........unlike other Eastern European countries which had to do what the Germans dictated to them to do .....and we all know howmany Polish, Hungarian, Czech ,Bulgarian jews were exterminated sofar .

I wana end and say that while there's no need to make out of Antonescu a hero , however as strange as it may sound ,one thing I credit him with directly or indirectly of saving many jewish lives and for being a capable Rumanian Army officer who had no other choice but sale Rumania to the Germans rather than Rumanian is both against her own will ,through which Antonescu avoided a greatest disaster in WWII .

Despite all Hitler, Mussolini, Tanaka, Vichy Government and Antonescu be written in the history of the human kind as murderers and war criminals who deserved their faith in 100% .

Alex

Alex, please do not use derigatory terms such as Krauts instead of Germans.

You forgot the great evil on the victorious side, the greatest dictator, STALIN.

Dragos, dumn how could I forget our Georgian friend Josef Visarionowitch Stalin...how silly of me.....apart from his two wifes he's lost ( one committed suide) before Germans attacked Soviet Union , our smart Georgian friend has jailed 60% of his Army , executed the Supreme Air Commander , deported half of the aircraft designers in Siberia and all this played by the Chief of Reich Sicherheistdienst (SD) R:Heydrich through a double spy known how quickly the Georgian will swollow the plot theory.

I dont want to say that many of the pilots who fought in Spain and HalkinGolf and were highly decorated some of them Heros of the Soviet Union had to be excuted at the Order of Stalin best friend Beria at the same night. I also didnt forget Katin ...where 70% of the Polish Army backbone officers were excuted at his order and the blame was put on SS and SD. I also didnt forget pact Molotov/Ribentropp and from the German Wochenschau (I have all the bands till '45) I can see Russian Tanks put on parade near German tanks, soviet Army officers saluting the parade near Whermacht counterparts... prior Polish invasion......that was the joke of the century..

Finally, the fact that the larget country in the world would buy the lies of this tyran till 1962 I finally dont wonder on why Germans could go so deep into S.U

I don't think I'll ever begin to understand Romania!

What do you not understand?

Mr. Emil from Cernauti made some wrong affirmations (by not knowing the problems sufficiently, or maybe with bad intentions) in about a half of his text.
I already wrote posts in other topics which may answer in part to Mr. Emil.
For the moment I'll spend my valuable time just for the following:

Emil Constantinescu made many mistakes as politician. I am sad to mention this, because in 1990-1996 I spent a lot of energy in supporting the political parties from which Mr. Constantinescu emerged as president of Romania.
But this is not the whole picture. Emil Constantinescu was president of Romania in 1996-2000. This means before September 11, 2001. In that period the whole Europe was under pressure from various Jewish organizations, with support from the Clinton administration, to "confess". It was expected from each individual European country to make written claims recognizing that in the past that nation itself, separately from the German occupiers, was guilty for the tragic fate of the Jewish community living in the country before the 40's. The reason was the request towards almost all European countries to pay compensations for the goods lost by the Jewish people in the 40's. The European countries complied, more or less, but anyway not in the degree requested by the Jewish organizations. One of the problems, all over Europe, was the request that regardless the fact that in a given Jewish family there are no survivors, thus no inheritors, money or property have to be given to Jewish organizations. The pressure kept going hard until September 11, 2001, when the Jewish organizations realized that The United States, their main tool in all this pressure, has a serious enemy to cope with, for the moment: the Muslim extremists. The pressure against Europe, which most of it is only for money or other belongings, can take a break.
It seems Mr. Emil from Cernauti has his mind floating in the days before 11 September 2001, when Europe was the demonic evil to be set on trial. Hello! Who is trying to pick up too many fights in the same time, loses the war.

In the past weeks I saw a very recent documentary made about Auschwitz. I felt moved after I saw it. In this new documentary, made by some Jewish organizations in collaboration with BBC, there is a more decent approach about the involvement of the satellite Axis governments regarding the Jews from Europe. This more decent historical approach is not only about Romania, but also about Hungary, Bulgaria and Italy. And the problem is more complex. By the way, Panzer King... Some guilt regarding the extermination of the Jews in Europe is due to Great Britain and The United States. They are guilty for more Jewish lives than Romania, or Hungary, or Bulgaria, or Italy, or Slovakia. Of course, U.K. and U.S. did not kill them, but it was in their power to save at least 1 million Jewish lives.
However, they preferred to do not save them.

This post has been edited by Florin on February 06, 2005 01:01 pm