Antonescu the Warrior

The closest approach I can make with US history is the case of general Robert E. Lee. While he was commanding the forces of the army which wanted to disband the United States, he remained the most admired general in US history. Antonescu is admired not for his coallition with the Germans, but for his devotion for the values Romania priced at that time.

Emil is right from his point of view. Jews suffered because of Antonescu, and he is entitled to state his position as anybody else here. But as Tudor said, many Romanians have high regard for Antonescu for his deeds more than refuting his wrong actions. Antonescu was the epitome of the true patriot, in a time when antisemitism was a common feeling. That does not acquit him from being a war criminal, but this does not mean he must be put in the same row with Hitler or Stalin. The tragedy of Jews and Gipsies in Romania was, in my opinion, the circumstance of the political climate in Europe during those years.

Emil is right from his point of view. Jews suffered because of Antonescu, and he is entitled to state his position as anybody else here.

Of course he has the right to mention his point of view. I wrote that he is wrong in a part of what he wrote, not in everything. As I argued regarding a part of his text, and not the whole text, I am still keeping my objections.
In stead of fueling an endless debate, I'll try to add in the recent future some more accurate information regarding how Great Britain and The United States could save at least the lives of
one million Jews, but they deliberately chose not to do so.

This post has been edited by Florin on February 06, 2005 04:30 am

Florin u've made a good point.

Austrian & German Jews who started to emigrate to Palestina through the port of Galazi travelling through Danuba ...when they arrived in Haifa they were put in UK prisons by British mandate overthere and deported further to African islands under Britsh mandate and once again jailed ,many of them died of illnesses and saome even comitted suicide .....the imprisonment lasted til 1945 and was without any grounds whatsoever . The British archives have declassified last year the files and it revealed that the UK in WWII did in fact know to full extent what was happening in all Nazzi camps ....and US recon flights have continously brought back photos of crematoriums at daily max output ...no bombing action was ever taken. Brits have also deliberatly gave the order to their Foreign Ministry to return back all ships loaded with jewish refugies from Galazi ..etc etc.....

One of the chiefs of Getto Warsaw was smuggled to the alies and requested allies attention and clear actions towards the holocaust in Germany and Poland , which was unfortunately ignored and stamped as a target of low priority by all allies including the Russians.

So again, as Victor stated Antonescu acted according to the time trend.....and I still think that many jewes lives were saved due to his pact with Germany while he was a small fish in a big barell..at the end of the war he was part of ther gang too no matter if he was right or wrong and his army inflicted somany casualties in Russia which was a key allied ....therefore his faith was sealed on the communist took over in Rumania. I still dont understand on why ARR pilots and officers had to be jailed by the communists......on some other generals would remain unscaved..I know little or not at all cases of ARR pilots being Nazzies or killing for fun like some of the Luftwaffe pilots

Alex

This post has been edited by alexkdl on February 06, 2005 08:38 pm

The closest approach I can make with US history is the case of general Robert E. Lee. While he was commanding the forces of the army which wanted to disband the United States, he remained the most admired general in US history.

Dragos offered such a smart answer, that I am envious on him!

Once you enter to Virginia coming from the North, every city or town has a museum, a or a monument, or a memorial house, or at least a street name honoring the Confederate soldiers, or a Confederate general. This continue everywhere in North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi.

People do not link this with slavery or secession. They just commemorate their relatives or simply the locals who showed heroism in the Confederate ranks: from the teenagers from St. Petersburg, Virginia, who kept at bay a Unionist Army for almost 10 months, or the cadets from the Military Academy of Virginia, who turned the tide of a battle for the Confederates, to the legendary generals as Lee or "Stonewall" Jackson.

To continue the analogy, while in Richmond, Virginia, there are beautiful monuments of Jefferson Davis, and of Robert Lee, and of "Stonewall" Jackson, when in Romania of the 90's some very few Romanians intended to build a statue of Antonescu, the reaction of the Jewish organizations was so strong and angry, that actually those isolated Romanians won additional hearts on their side!

I do not think in this moment there is any monument in Romania commemorating any Romanian general or Romanian superior officer who was on the Eastern Front. I may be wrong, but one exception or two in a whole country still makes the point.

But we have now in Brasov a statue of Israel's former Prime Minister, Yitzhak Rabin...

This post has been edited by Florin on February 07, 2005 02:21 am

Florin's right about the monuments to Confederate soldiers and leaders all over the southern USA. But it goes further than that. Several of the U.S. Army's current bases are named after generals best known for their service in the Confederate Army.

These include:

Fort Lee, named after Robert E. Lee

Fort Bragg, named after Braxton Bragg, who served in the Seminole War and the Mexican War, but who was also Commander-in-Chief of the Confederate Army under Jefferson Davis. Prior to that he commanded at Shiloh, Chickamauga, and Chattanooga. The base is currently home to the XVIIIth Airborne Corps and 82d Airborne Division.

Fort Hood, named after Confederate General John Bell Hood. The base is currently home to III Corps, 1st Cavalry Division (an armored division, don't worry ), and 4th Infantry Division.

Fort Pickett, named after Confederate Major General George Pickett, famous for "Pickett's Charge" at Gettysburg.

Fort Polk, named after Confederate General Leonidas Polk. The base houses an important training center for light forces.

I haven't counted, but my guess is that there are more active U.S. Army posts named after Confederate generals that for Union generals, and the Union army won. Yes, there is a Fort Meade, a Fort Sheridan, and a Fort McLellan, but there is no Fort Grant, or Fort Sherman. My guess this is caused by bases sometims being named for soldiers from that state, and more Army installations being located in the southern states.

The names of these bases do not cause charges of racism, or that the Army is excusing slavery. It is understood that the naming of the bases honors their skill as soldiers, and their contributions in the U.S. Army.

It might be a bit much to expect that the Romanian military would name a base (or anything) after Antonescu.

This post has been edited by Jeff_S on February 07, 2005 07:56 pm

Yes, but it would be nice to see more Rumanian military units named after famous soldiers of that particular branch (even the Germans named a few Bundesluftwaffe units after famous Luftwaffe pilots, like H. J. Marseille - however, this practice is being now reversed by the current leftist Government).

From the current OOB of the AMR (see: http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=1590), it appears that only two units are named after personalities - none of them W.W. 2-era pilots.

Gen. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on February 07, 2005 05:32 pm

Ober Leutnant Hans Joachim Marseille was else but a Nazzi , was a great pilot and a nostalgic guy who had a great passion for fast cars and planes and was never considered a Nazzi or a war criminal like Goering (Meier) suggest the motion picture DER STERN VON AFRIKA . Naming a base in Rumania after someone like Antonescu would be like naming nowadays a base in Germany after Hermann ( Maier) Goering, Hitler or Oberst Rudel . And guys dont forget that Rumania is currently on peace keeping missions with NATO and US , how would the US and other NATO members view such political development in Rumania ? I don't think that any of those would swollow this idea well.

I hope we keep this back and forth glorifying discussions about Antonescu for ourself and hopefully the public opinion in Rumania won't shift towards Antonescu and Adolf again because if it would , that would constitute a grave problem for Roumania not only within NATO but elsewhere including Russian Federation and Ukraine who have still many sentiments left for what the Germans and also Rumanians , Italians, Croats, Spanish and others did to their nations in WWII and keep in mind guys these countries are even bordering Roumania and are militarily substantially stronger than Rumania .

Alex

PS: and if anyone from NSA, CIA, DST, MI-6, MOSAD, BND,KGB and else be seeing all this ..take it easy we are just historians with no bad intentions just trying to review Antonescu past military credentials and cheking too the possibility of giving him some credit for saving additional jewish lives in WWII which may well be the case .

This post has been edited by alexkdl on February 08, 2005 02:06 am

haha

I think CIA and Mosad have more important business to do.

On the other hand - they probably have a file on all of us (especially me) and know all they have to know. It's probably stored on that supercomputer in Bruxelles.

Alex, the 'yes' in my above reply was directed towards your last note, meaning that "I agree with what you wrote":

However - at least in my view - it would be nice to see contemporary Rumanian military units named after famous Rumanian soldiers of W. W. 2., like Alexandru Serbanescu.

Gen. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on February 08, 2005 03:42 am

Denes

I agree, Serbanescu and Cantacutino and others were great pilots and the didnt fight a war of their own...if there would have been up to them they may have been from begining on , at the US and Allies side. Therefore I agree with you.....while USSR cheerishes air aces history , Rumania doesnt.....just a few days ago Victor told me that Piaza Coantacuzino doesnt stand after Constantins name, except a street name after Serbanescu and yearly memorials I dont know if that would be the case and say that the ROM did enough for their memories

Alex

That "business" would be the drug sales, no?

That "business" would be the drug sales, no?

The reporter who wrote few articles and spoke in few conferences about the affair of bringing drugs in the U.S. via Central America, with the involvement of people having links with CIA, was gradually banned to publish articles in any American newspaper. Feeling isolated and betrayed, he committed suicide in December 2004.

Get back on topic.

OK... Back on topic. Until I'll have time to mention what Great Britain and the other Allies could do to help to save the lives of 1 million Jews in 1944, check this link:

http://www.pbs.org/auschwitz/40-45/killing/