Favorite Pilot ?

Ok, i place another option - after reading your post, Denes:

Alexandru Papana

I think it was the "ace" in aerobatics.

And, Luca Dorel, of course.

(litlle of topic, no?)


Iama

Edit:

http://www.airforce.go.ro/Foto/Istorie/Ohio/papana.jpg

http://www.geocities.com/sorin_1999_98/aircraft/mig21.html and here you may find some pictures and data (one of them is with Luca plane)


This post has been edited by Iamandi on January 26, 2005 09:18 am

Mytzu I full agree with your comment , through the death he spared himself communist humiliation, countless offens , prison and the need to betray its older friends.

Al

Excuse my ignorance of the matter, but an interesting thread has developed here and forgive me for probing but do you consider that changing sides against the Germans in 1944 was dishonorable? From what I gathered "Bazu" has fought against his former allies and was even shtot down by Lipfert ( any more info on that one? ) but since Serbanescu died before the change of direction then somehow he was able to "save face". By 1944 I think it was evident that Germany was going down, that's why "Bazu" flew the mission with the American colonel in his baggage compartment. What would Serbanescu do in that situation.
In the interest of full disclosure I am polish and my country fought always with the allies but was subjugated by the Russians just the same as the rest of the Iron Curtain countries and the glorious Allies did squat about it, so it was a "bitter victory", liberated from the Germans by the Russians.
Artur.

Artur, there are already other topics dedicated to this subject. Let's keep this one on track.

See here, for example: http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=206

Artur I was talking about a men's feelings, more precisely about Serbanescu's feelings - as far as I found out he was a real man, with a very strong character.How would you feel if starting tomorrow you are told to get to the air and shoot down/kill your comrades and friends that you flew with for 3 bitter years ? It is not about Germany, Hitler or ww2 necesarry - it is a matter of principle: Serbanescu was a pilot and a great man, he had fought along side pilots from german squadrons for many years, friendships apeared between pilots (which is a normal thing), for many years the fierce enemy were the russians - immagine you are suddenly told that you must shoot and kill the man that untill yesterday you considered to be your friend, your brother in arms.To better understand this read Dene's book about how romanian and german pilots acted in the first days after 23 august.

I have to say "my favorite pilot" question is one of the hardest I found on this forum, for me all of those brave men are heroes and deserve all my respect and admiration.I like Serbanescu, I like Bazu, I like Milu, Mucenica, Polizu, Darjan, Vinca, Dicezare, Dobran, Greceanu, etc. etc. etc. I respect them and they will always be a model for me.

This post has been edited by D13-th_Mytzu on January 26, 2005 04:51 pm

To Mr. Denes,

I am quite surprised that such comments remain unchecked by you guys.
I wonder if you "general" have piloted not to mention fought in a plane...
One of the most powerful factors in a flight or dogfight is luck-he probably didn't have much the day he was killed. It is amazing for me how a pretty known (and self-proclaimed objective) historian like you could throw such subjective opinions and get away with it. It is a disgraceful lack of respect for a pilot and man that was killed in service of his country (authorised or not) and i am simply shocked that nobody noticed that so far.

Denes, it isn't the first time you have such remarks , i advise you to remain objective if you want to have any chance to mantain your already tarnished reputation.

Now, to get to the topic, my favourite FARR pilot would be Ion Dobran, not only for the pilot he was, but mostly for the man he is.
Also i would add Tiberiu Vinca.

Peace to all,
109

Nice to meet you 109
I agree with you. I ALSO THINK THAT THIS FORUM WAS CREATED TO PROMOTE ROMANIAN AVIATION NO TO LIBEL IT AND IT'S PILOTS. No one gives us authority
to judge the pilots that gave their lives for the country.
Thank you

Mr. "109",

First of all, any opinions, comments and declarations done anonymously doesn't have any value and weight, to say the least. It's simply what in internet language is called 'flame'. It's nothing new, I've been 'flamed' before and probably will be.
If you don’t want to reveal your identity in public, feel free to contact me privately, via a PM.
Second, I doubt you ever piloted a combat airplane either, let alone participate in an air combat. However, it doesn't matter, as one doesn't need to be a combat pilot to ponder and form an educated opinion about a historical event.
Third, writing exclusively good and positive things about a segment of history and its participants, hiding or modifying the less pleasant facts, which do not fit the writer's personal agenda, is hardly the norm, it rather discredits the author. On the contrary, by not being afraid to point out both the positive and negative parts of a certain historical topic, one is getting closer to what and how actually happened - the goal of every self-respecting historian. Objectivity means exactly that, namely not being afraid to mention something that is not entirely positive, for the sake of retracing the events the way they were, even if it would draw some negative remarks, like this one. If someone decides not to write about a particular issue, simply because he believes it tarnishes the memory of the airmen who fought for their country, he not only twists the facts, but also causes disservice to history. We have seen this practice for many-many years, during the pre-1989 period of national-Communism and even occasionally in our days.

Mr. 109, if you're shocked by what you think is my "disrespect", then please feel free to be shocked also by the respect I have shown to the Rumanian airmen and their struggle, described in what I consider an objective matter, sustained by most of the people who read what I wrote.

As for your remark:

I cannot read it in other way than a barely veiled threat to my person. As such, I treat it accordingly.

Interestingly, you did not come up with any serious counter arguments to what I wrote, but rather handled the issue in a biased manner. I believe this historical board deserves better, for the sake of history the way it was, thus respecting the very persons who took part - willingly or unwillingly - in those events.

In closing, Mr. '109', and others, I respectfully call you to debate what I, or others wrote, with arguments and facts, and not personal opinions and negative feelings you apparently have against my person. See or example, my recent exchanges with 'Cantacuzino', which remained polite and showed mutual respect, from which all of us could learn, to the benefit of what we all like and cheerish: the history of Rumanian aviation.

Thank you,

Bernád Dénes
('General' on this forum)

This post has been edited by Dénes on January 29, 2005 05:27 pm

To Mr. Denes,

I am quite surprised that such comments remain unchecked by you guys.
I wonder if you "general" have piloted not to mention fought in a plane...
One of the most powerful factors in a flight or dogfight is luck-he probably didn't have much the day he was killed. It is amazing for me how a pretty known (and self-proclaimed objective) historian like you could throw such subjective opinions and get away with it. It is a disgraceful lack of respect for a pilot and man that was killed in service of his country (authorised or not) and i am simply shocked that nobody noticed that so far.

Denes, it isn't the first time you have such remarks , i advise you to remain objective if you want to have any chance to mantain your already tarnished reputation.

Now, to get to the topic, my favourite FARR pilot would be Ion Dobran, not only for the pilot he was, but mostly for the man he is.
Also i would add Tiberiu Vinca.

Peace to all,
109

109

first of and while reviewing your comments you posted, just in case it would interest you , Denes remarks were 100% appropriate and I am telling you this not from the stand point of view of a General on this forum nor as military aviation historian but as a reservist military pilot and as pilot since almost 30 years . Denes knowledge of ARR history and military aviation of WWII as well modern military knowledge is very extensive and far from a point where you can exercise criticism whatsoever or draw conclusions on his piloting knowledge, quite contrary your remarks reflecting lack substance at your end and by no means you've made your point anyway!

Apart from the books he wrote, I must tell you that his name and fame are going far beyond this forum and his books and also Roumanian borders, and his overall military knowledge and his resources were shared by fomer US and other well known military pilots who wrote books on major military aviation operations of the WWII , he is well known by the military aviation community of WWII which appearently you have no knwledge of at all , because otherwise you wouldn't have posted such comments which I would rather rate as pure nonsense and of someone who's badmouthing instead do something good for the started topic.

My recommandations to you are , get to know Denes better though this forum, improve your military aviation knowledge and avoid criticism prior proving your own knowledge first ...which sofar by no means the case .

One last comment to your remarks, have you ever piloted a plane and if yes ,howabout sharing this with us ? Luck on dogfights is only a marginal aspect a fighter pilot would want to count on since after WWI ...The main factors are solid pilot training , combat experience, personality and abilities of the pilot , interaction with his squadron mates and commanders and readiness to stay fit at all time and learn all over again, keep a low profile attitude towards commanders and of course the wingman performance in a dogfight is a crucial issue too...After all if you were ever in a military duty , you would know that by starting something with the of comments type you started would be first and foremost self defeating and totally out of context ,because sofar none knows a thing about you yet.

If you ever sat in the cockpit of a military or civil aircraft even as a student pilot and show the type of performance you showed on here, you would be on reject/ crash status prior even leaving the ground and you can count your friends on your fingers.

Cool off with your comments and next time make sure you have a point rather than attacking one of the top experts on this forum .

PS : Finally I reedited this message as you don't cease with your mean and sarcastic remarks such as :

" I have nothing personal with you Denes, i admit that your books did more good than wrong to the history of Romanian Aviation, but your status as THE authority in FARR issues obliges you...please try to deserve it! "

......I personally think that you keep drifting off the topic further and futher and it leave the bad taste to the reader on you conducting on here a personal vendeta with Denes and trying to prove a point which in fact you dont have.


Alex

This post has been edited by alexkdl on January 29, 2005 10:09 pm

109, the title of this topic itself calls for subjective opinions. This is what "favorite" means, a person's subjective opinion, which may be different than your's.

Fratello, knowing the facts, we can draw conclusions on the soldier's performance or decisions. This isn't judging (which would asume crimes have been committed), it's analyzing. I think there is a big difference. Take the case of lt. col. Custer and the battle of Little Big Horn. Just because the man was killed during the battle, doesn't make him a great commander or absolve his tactical mistakes that eventually led to his death and that of his men.

The poll was about the members' subjective preference for a pilot;
What i could not understand was why you had to contradict Maresal's opinion with ANY arguments.
It was his choice.
Maybe he liked Toma Lucian because his plane had a nice paintjob or he was hansome or something...
Your remark was really unnecessary and malevolent. It was simply
his choice and no one should have reacted to that.
It's like I would say i like Mozart and one would say why, he was a frivolous guy.
Toma Lucian had not become a group leader because of his "connections" or
other things like this that but because of his performances. The fact that he died
in combat during a simple interception mission does not make him a weak pilot,
no one knows what happened there. No one can say that was a case of obvious judgment or tactical errors as in the case of Gen Custer. It could have been a lucky shot from the german gunner, couldn't it?
Many pilots of wwII died in rather mundane circumstances and it's not our job, historians or not ,to interpret their actions but only to reveal them!
Try to imply to the french that their beloved St Exupery died because he was a weak pilot and hadn't looked in the mirror...
see how they would react,( mostly because they haven't eaten cornbread/mamaliga all their lives...)
When you are a credited international historian, with many aknowledged books published and read worldwide, your status does not allow you th jump to this kind of opinions even on a rather insignifiant forum as this one.You must simply STICK TO THE FACTS (EG. he died in combat with a german Ju188 on 25.09.1944 over Someşeni, CLUJ) not interpret the fact the way it pleases you. I do not agree to the opposite side also , to the rather pathetic combat tales of a reputed romanian writer, VT,(which ONLY reffers to the FARR pilots as heroes, eagles etc. while the others are fascists or bolsheviks) but as a historian one should only stick to the facts, not interpret them. I hope you all understand, i also have prefferences for certain pilots, like some , don't like others but my common sense oblige me not to judge their actions and rate their performance based on a single action/mission and publicly.

I say again that it isn't your first time. and i am willing and ready to prove this
with facts but is simply not the place here.
I have nothing personal with you Denes, i admit that your books did more good than wrong to the history of Romanian Aviation, but your status as THE authority in FARR issues obliges you...please try to deserve it!

This post has been edited by 109 on January 29, 2005 09:54 pm

Hello Victor,

Custer's case was an obvious tactical blunder, studied for years to come in tactics courses.
The compharison with Lucian's combat is a little forced, to say at least. The mistakes Custer made were obvious while Cpt's Lucian combat with the german recco is A SINGLE action in which, chance , fate and other factor played, not only his flying abilities.
Indeed, in theory, a ju88-188 doesn't stand a chance against 2 Bf109 ..but I do not know what's the case at 22.000 feet.
Maybe he was tired that day, maybe he wasn't feeling so well. Maybe the german gunner was a better gunner than Lucian a pilot. Still you cannot draw the concluzion that Lucian was a weak pilot. After all, if you asses a pilot according to his ability to acomplish the task given, he destroyed the german plane thus acomplishing the mission...Who knows, maybe the recco films that never arrived to the Germans saved thousands of romanian soldiers, making this a good trade
(if you'll excuse the cinism.)

hello Alexkdl..
Question for you: How would an american feel when told that the famed Thomas McGuire died because he was a weak pilot and commanding officer, being killed in a combat in which he had all cards (four P-38 vs a single japonese fighter)? He ALMOST was the USAAF top scorer...was he a weak pilot?

Face it..S#$t happenes, people make mistakes, including generals...

I do not have anything personal with Denes, more than that , if any of you would imply ethnical issues please know that i am of the same origin as his (my name is Homos- read Homosh -please ) and ANY of you who would have said what he said would have had the same treatment from me! I came harder on Denes precisely because he is a known historian and writer and being so he should be even more responible for his words than the rest of us.
My point Alexkdl, is, and it it a rock-solid one, that no historian should interpret the facts and distort them by adding his own subjective flavour (either to make them more glamorous or opposite), he merely has to tell the facts. The readers should draw their own conclusions based only by the real facts, not by the facts seen from the writer's point of view. That's all.

Hello and thanks for the message ( Din pacate aprarezi anonym )

While I appreciate your excellent command in English ,I fully decline your comments about Denes adding his own words and wrongly rectifying the history or attempting to be the ARR authority on here as pure nonsese ,rude and disrespectful at your end as well lack of appreciation towards an historian of this forum and those who work so hard on here since months and year ( not me) to keep up the quality of the ARR forum, while yourself are new commer.

Beside being a pilot since over 30 years ,a military aviation historian of WWII ,Vietnam ,Korea War as well Yom Kippur War especially the Tidalwave since 25 years and known to sources for Tidalwave resources world wide....yet my friend I have to emphasize , that even Denes not being a pilot rather an historian , thanks to his wide and deep historical knowledge ,data furnished to me by other sources and posted on my messges on this forum , were rectified thanks to Denes ..and I am extremly grateful of such QC and exercise of authority on here if you will . I reffer the same about Victor, Dragos, Dan, CIP,C-2 and anyone on here who makes worth living the past history of WWII aviation and who are instrumental for the quality of this Forum which has reached many US, GERMANS and RUSSIAN WWII veterans groups as well the veterans of your country .

In addition let me tell you that Denes books even reached the JG54 and 53 veterans I've met such as Gen.Inspekteur (a.D.) Guenther Rall , Russian verterans and historians , US ARMY AIR FORCE WWII veterans groups I maintain contacts with and several important books about TW such as FORTRESS PLOESTI , Operation Reunion , Hungarian AF of WWII etc were all accomplished thanks to Bernard Denes help. Incidently I received a great commendment from Rumanian Astronaut Col.Prunariu about Denes books, who never met him in person nor ever corresponded with him , during my exchange of emails with him through the Rumanian Embassy in Moscow.

Therefore do us all a great favour, please approach Denes with the necessary courtessy and respect towards his deep knowledge and it will substantially more helpful if you cease question his integrity as writter and historian as well ARR QC authorithy on here from the point of view of WWII in similar to Victor and Dragos rich experiences which without them ,this forum would not have been where is at today .

Sper ca situzia sa clarificate si sper ca o sa va concentrazi la subiectul principal al discuzie noastere in prezent si viitor si adoptazi of pozizie moderata.....so please cool off and take it easy with your comments on here in due course.

Salutations / merci / Cu Respect
Alex

This post has been edited by alexkdl on January 30, 2005 03:31 am

You are right Alex, but Me 109 is also right. The topic title is FAVORITE PILOT, so we must chose a favorit pilot (if we have one) not to discredit him. I like Mr. Denes's books and I also appreciate his effort to promote Romanian Aviation but I think that a real historian must be fair and to judge the facts not the people.