We still need NATO?

Countries may always leave EU. That clause has always been there. But you can no more be half part of EU than Oklahoma can be "partly" in the US. Either you're member and you enjoy the duties and benefits, or you're not. Still EU has a lot of optionals, the kind of which allows the English to keep their godamned £

This post has been edited by Chandernagore on March 04, 2005 11:33 pm

NATO should be disbanded and substituted by a European aliance (not a Euro Army, that's impossible for hundreds of reasons, starting from the linguistic one!), that will eliminate american military interference in Europe, before any more damage is caused, like what happened in Kosovo, where a sovereign state was attacked, mutilated of part of its territory, an area that is now practically controlled by criminal gangs becoming one of the biggest centres of common and political crime in the continent...thank you U. S. of A!!!!
The time has come for the Yanks to pack their bags and clear out of Vicenza, Aviano, Sigonella, Ramstein, Nurnberg and so on.
A real strong European alliance could be tha base of a new world coalition to put the USA back in its place once and for all!

Well I'm not so sure that we should jettison all sign of US-EU military alliance. It's not because we're in bad terms with one government that sun cannot follow rain. Where I agree is that Europe needs to increase substantially it's own capability to project power outside it's frontiers (for defense we already have more than what we need). It's important because alliances function more smoothly where there is balance and respect for mutual capabilities. It is possible to develop and support substantial intervention forces without throwing senseless amounts of money in our defense budgets. We're not going to (and don't want to) equal the US levels.

The confrontional politics of the US make us badly armed to answer the current problems. I wish it was otherwise but we must adapt to the world developments. It's strange though that the force slowly driving Europe back on the international stage, accelerating and strengthening the union is ...the US

As long as there are Blairs Berlusconis Kwashniewskis and Basescus in Europe what you said is science fiction.
The US has the upper hand, you can compare it with the British Empire of the early 20th century. It has the latter's immense flexibility in dealing with and preventing a rival united continent.
Besides that, one should never imagine that a united continent sharing and supporting US goals in Russian periphery would be disliked in Washington. One always needs foederati.
And the Europeans are too soft to ever go against the US with anything else but rhetoric.

Yeah. When it went down it did so real fast

I agree ! We need your constant, familiar bragging otherwise we would be bored to death in the great space time continuum

Sorry, when I talked about Europeans being soft, I meant the political decisiomakers, not the Armies... Although I havent heard of the Armies being in action since a long time. I'm talking about the continental armies.
It would be an interesting question. Whats the level of war experience in NATO? What... Dien Bien Phu for the French? Battle of Berlin for the Germans?
No, seriously now, it would be interesting.

p.s. By war experience I mean a war mostly of and on their own, Gulf War I not included for example. One in which they played the major part, not the "other allies" part etc.

take care

Yeah. When it went down it did so real fast

Dream on.

Oh yes the U.S. interfered in Europe. Too bad....everyone could now be speaking German...or maybe Russian, depending on which interference you speak of.

But blaming the U.S.A. for criminal activity in Kosovo? I had no idea! I had the naive notion that somehow criminal activity in the Balkans was a well established lifestyle when we were still busy throwing the Brits out of N. America. I had no idea that Kosovo was the province of brotherly love and peace. silly me.

You are so welcome.

I agree ! We need your constant, familiar bragging otherwise we would be bored to death in the great space time continuum

Sorry, but I'm European, so there's nothing to brag about... I'm just not ashamed to admit it...
In Romania if you talk about the Army you talk about the devil. Everybody's a peacenik here... And the pres talks about preventive action! He enjoys sky-diving. In the ratings...

This post has been edited by Imperialist on March 06, 2005 10:56 pm

So, like... we're now speaking english!!! Like... whats the difference, we're speaking something else anyways!

p.s. I've always resented this argument... everybody uses it. In english, ofcourse. Imagine the Germans victorious in WW2 saying : "Zo, ve zaved you vrom ze Americans. You could be zpeaking English now, you know that, ya? Be grateful vor crying out loud, you now zpeak German! Ya, German schon, schon! Bad english, bad!" [ofcourse, in German, I couldnt act that out. thanx US!! ]

take care

So, like... we're now speaking english!!! Like... whats the difference, we're speaking something else anyways!

p.s. I've always resented this argument... everybody uses it. In english, ofcourse. Imagine the Germans victorious in WW2 saying : "Zo, ve zaved you vrom ze Americans. You could be zpeaking English now, you know that, ya? Be grateful vor crying out loud, you now zpeak German! Ya, German schon, schon! Bad english, bad!" [ofcourse, in German, I couldnt act that out. thanx US!! ]

take care

Danken sie, Ya. It is weak. I'm just saying, if not for the N.A.I.F the Russians could have gone right on thru to ...Madrid? I'm assuming that would not have been good in the long run.

Or, if the Third Reich had prevailed, suspect few of us would be saying much at all.. ... dude.
Noapte buna.

Well I will jump into the water. I don't say it's the US fault as the whole operations were agreed upon on a more global level. The problem is that the criminal activities from Albania/Kossovo seem to have spilled big time into western European cities (and probably eastern too I guess) where these mafia like practices are dismaying and enraging us. This to the point where I ask myself if the right choices were made in this conflict. It may look egoistic, but did NATO save/wrest Kossovo from Serbian control so that the Albanians/Kossovar may export their loosy business inside EU ? I'm angry when I think of it.

Of course on a technical level you're right -- countries are either members or not.

But as I understand it, the optionals are not always at the option of the affected state. Isn't there talk of placing limits on movement of new members citizens (e.g. Turks) within the Union? Different rules for agriculture subsidies too? And of course the Euro, as you noted.

Off topic... even being "in the US" is not all-or-nothing. The Indian tribes and their casinos are one example...subject to federal laws but not those of the states that surround them. Puerto Rico is another... like a state in many ways, but different in others.

You don't like this argument? Too bad, I think your grandparents did...(unless they were in the US or unless they were nazi or communists)

It's not about the language we all speak, it's about the fact that a lot of present-day EU citizens would be dried-up sperm and ovules still in the loins of their parents' decaying corpses if it weren't for the US entering WWII.

You resent this argument because everybody uses it? Everybody uses it for a good reason......because it's true, for God's sake.

So now some ask themselves, why do we need NATO and the US in Europe. Iamandi even proposed not having the US in NATO. First off, without the US's financial contribution, there would be no NATO, it would be a farce.

Second, and more important, it's quite disappointing to see this attitude of "We don't need you anymore, so get out!".

Beware what you wish for! You got your asses collectively kicked in 1940, and you cried for the US to come help you back then.

Chances are it will happen again at some point. So if you don't want the US around out of gratitude, then you should at least have the wisdom to want them around out of purely selfish, utilitarian reasons....you needed the US in the past, you'll need the US again in the future.

Yeah!!!!!! A real strong European alliance....you know, like back in 1940. Germany, France, Italy, Poland, Slovakia, the Nordic countries, well, you get the picture.

That was a real strong European alliance, and it could have been the base for a new world coalition. You regret those times, don't you?

To put the USA back in its place.....from what? From where? What the hell do you mean?

Unless you're an Al-Quaeda member or an "insurgent", what has the US done to you recently? I'm assuming you live in Europe. Did they place an embargo on Europe that I'm not aware of? Did they invade a European country? Did they place unfair trade tariffs? Do their soldiers rape your women and pillage your villages?

Europe has enough problems on its own. You can worry about those instead of trying to "put the US back in its place".

I'm sorry you don't like the fact that it's the number 1 superpower. But it is. For how long, I don't know, but probably longer than you and I will live to see. So get used to it.