Hawker Hurricane in ARR

Denes with all respect, I think one of us doesn't understand english. We both agree that some of romanian Hurricanes could have fabric cover wings and less of 8 guns. And both agree that personall opinions about that issue without clear proof ( archiv doc. and photo) we should avoided. From my part i bring in this topic a lot of proof : pictures with rom.Hurry with metal wings and six guns in the wings, documents from relyble source ( Air International, Dan Antoniu ) from you, we didn't get anything to proof contrary. Your afirmation that Steven Modeldad ( sorry if i ofend his name ) bring new elements is superfluu. What were this elements? His afirmation " It's appears all foreign Hurricanes" was new element ? when before was posted a picture with a romanian Hurricane with metal wings( so not all the Hurry were exported with fabric wings).
And you didn't respond to my question ( but i will not force you) did you use or you will use Steven Modeldad (knowledgeable person) as a reference for Romanian Hurricanes in your books ?
Why you didn't ask him what were his archiv documents for the issue with romanian Hurricanes ( if you really want to help for solving this issue and not only put other people to work given them his e-mail )

I didn't wanted to fight with you for this, but all people wants the truth about history and we are all mature to have a productive discussion and not personal fight.

So i will kindly ask you when argue with me ( or other people) about some romanian aviation misteries please do with relyble source and use as much is posible original documents, pictures and worldwide known authors.

From my part i will continuu to serve only one cause - the TRUTH evan i will be forced to fight with knowledgeble peoples for that.

Dan.

Below another picture of a romanian Hurricane with metal cover wings. From" Aripi Romanesti" WWII aviation magazine.
( I am still waiting picture with fabric wings from knowledgeable people)

This post has been edited by Cantacuzino on February 21, 2005 08:13 am

Attached Image

Cantacuzino I think you are right. I saw at least 2 photos (I think another one was posted by 109) that shows very clearly romanian Hurricanes with metal cover wings.
BTW many thanks for this photo (that I didn't see before now) with the romanian Hurricane from" Aripi Romanesti" WWII aviation magazine.

Fratello

Attached Image

So,from what I understand,some HH had metal wings and some fabric wings.
Some had 8 mg's and some 6!

Yes, C-2, apparently that could have been the case.

Gen. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on February 21, 2005 11:03 pm

I saw yesterday in a private collection a romanian Hurricane with fabric wings (Yugoslav ???). So at least one was with fabric cover. I don't have personal that picture so i can not post it .

Dan.

BTW. i also saw in the same collection the romanian Hurricane nr."Yellow 2", Yellow3", "Yellow 4" ,"yellow 5" and " Yellow 7" with metal cover wings.

This post has been edited by Cantacuzino on February 22, 2005 10:06 am

Also an interesting feature of romanian Hurricanes was the old simple gun sight sistem ( grila) seen in the previous posted picture.

Dan.

What number was it? Could you see the ARR markings?

Gen. Dénes

P.S. Are those photos in D.A.'s collection?

Here's the reply I receievd from Tony Holmes (for those know don't know who he is, Tony is the editor of the Osprey Publ. House's aviation division, author of many aviation books, incl. a book on Hurricane Aces):

This is just another piece in the puzzle, however. We still have to figure out when were the original fabric covered wings of some of the airplanes changed to metal covered ones.

Gen. Dénes

I can not see the number nor the ARR markings. But the mecanics changing the ammo were romanians.

Yes, D.A.

This post has been edited by Cantacuzino on February 22, 2005 02:12 pm

I think first we have to find what were the serial number of yugoslav hurricanes in romanian service. I bet that yugoslav air force bought their Hurricanes before romanians so it should have fabric cover wings.

Dan.

Well dear colleagues,

So far I was standing aside. I’m monitoring your discussion since very beginning and I was wondering at what point Yugoslav Hurricanes will be mentioned.
From Yugoslav point of view there is no mystery just in one case for sure considering machines sold to Romanians by Germans.
There were 6 captured machines in Yugoslavia. 2 were sent to Luftflotte 4 before end of April 1941. One was completely destroyed by German pilot in flight accident on Zemun airfield on April 24th 1941. Guy was from Stab JG54 (remained unhurt!) and other 3 were sold to Romanian state.
From those 6 Hurricanes 4 were for sure with fabric covered wings, brand new machines from Zmaj factory. Yes, ALL license built Hurries in Yugoslavia were with fabric covered wings.
To solve the rest of the problem. First two from 12 British made Hurries arrived at Yugoslavia in December 1938 and 10 more in the beginning of 1939 (fabric covered wings and Watt’s two blades props). Second batch of 12 machines arrived during 1939 (metal covered wings with three blade props).
During 1940 all machines with two blade props were converted to three blade props.
On the Zemun airfield there was 6 Hurricanes captured. 4 brand new (fabric covered wings), some of them slightly damaged during German strafing of airfield and two from 2.Fighter Regiment arrived from their operational unit from Gruza airfield (could be metal or could be fabric covered wings, God knows?).
Theoretically, if Germans took 2 and destroyed one with the fabric wings there was at least one with fabric covered wings that was sold to Romania, maybe 2 and maybe all three! One for sure was with fabric covered wings.
Considering machineguns. ALL Yugoslav Hurries were with 8 Browning (Belgian license) machineguns, but brand new machines were without armament. They were flown to Kraljevo State Factory for installing of same. Since 4 new machines from Zemun actually never reached Kraljevo at least one or maybe all three machines reach Romania with no armament at all. If someone can find info was there any armament on Yugoslav Hurricanes that were sold to Romania your problem about “fabric or metal” wing will be solve easily.
Also if someone has Yugoslav serial numbers of Hurricane sold to Romania, problem is solved. Let me know the numbers and I’ll give you the answer.
Again I have question for all of you. Does anyone have photo of ARR Hurricane with number 13, 14 or 15? TIA.
I hope it helps a bit.
Could anyone help me with Yugoslav Blenheims over Romania in 1941?

Cheers,
Aleks

Hi Aleks, thanks for lightning us a litlle bit.
Do you know the serial numbers for this 12 yugo Hurry with metal wings and exactly the month of receiving them ?

Dan.

The largest number i saw on romanian Hurricanes was 12.

Dan.

This was also my opinion from the begin but i can not proof with photo.

12 -ex RAF with metal wings.
3 -ex Yugo with fabric wings.


Dan.

Cantacuzino, I recall you not being initially aware that there were series manufactured Hurricanes Mk. Is with fabric cover. I raised the issue in order to clarify it.
Now it appears that we have the general answer: ARR had Hurricanes with both metal and fabric covered wings. However, the research still goes on to see at what point were the original fabric covered wings exchanged on some (or all) 12 British Hurricanes with metal covered ones. Also, it would be nice to sort out the situation of the three ex-Yugoslav ones.
The search continues...

Gen. Dénes

BTW, the 12 British Hurricanes were factory new, not ex-RAF.