Versus, Virtual Arena for modern tools of war

AK 47 or M-16? Gripen Vs F-16? ... or vs Typhoon? One vs another.. This topic will be the host for discution about duels, between professionists and amators (included here copy&pasters ) for the same, and maybe oposit sides.

How about F-22 vs. Typhoon?


CSAF: Raptor, Eurofighter Complementary


(Source: US Air Force; issued march 22, 2005)


"WASHINGTON --- The Air Force chief of staff added to his 5,000-plus flying hours with familiarization flights in both the F/A-22 Raptor and the Eurofighter aircraft.

Gen. John P. Jumper said the Eurofighter is both agile and sophisticated, but is still difficult to compare to the F/A-22 Raptor. He is the only person to have flown both aircraft.

"They are different kinds of airplanes to start with," the general said. "It's like asking us to compare a NASCAR car with a Formula 1 car. They are both exciting in different ways, but they are designed for different levels of performance."

The Raptor is the latest addition to the Air Force combat aircraft inventory. The Eurofighter is a combat fighter aircraft designed and produced as a joint effort by several European countries.

Despite being designed for different missions, General Jumper said the Eurofighter and the Raptor are equally high-tech aircraft.

"The Eurofighter is certainly, as far as smoothness of controls and the ability to pull (and sustain high G forces), very impressive," he said. "That is what it was designed to do, especially the version I flew, with the avionics, the color moving map displays, etc. -- all absolutely top notch. The maneuverability of the airplane in close-in combat was also very impressive."

The F/A-22 performs in much the same way as the Eurofighter, General Jumper said. But it has additional capabilities that allow it to perform the Air Force's unique missions.

"The F/A-22 Raptor has stealth and supercruise," he said. "It has the ability to penetrate virtually undetected because of (those) capabilities. It is designed to be a penetrating airplane. It can maneuver with the best of them if it has to, but what you want to be able to do is get into contested airspace no matter where it is."

General Jumper said he believes the Eurofighter and the Raptor will help America's allies and the Air Force each perform their part of the overall mission as they work together to execute the war on terror.

"We do things in a complementary way," he said. "We have been to war with our allies in Desert Storm, in Kosovo and more recently in Afghanistan and Iraq. We all have our roles to play, and the role of the U.S. Air Force is in many ways to kick down the door and make sure the airspace is available for people to do whatever it is they want to do in the air or on the ground under that airspace."

One advantage of having flown the Eurofighter, General Jumper said, is that it allows him to get first-hand knowledge of technology U.S. allies use and to see how America's handiwork stacks up. He said he believes the two aircraft are running neck-and-neck, but America must always be vigilant to ensure it stays on the cutting edge of aviation technology.

"You can see the technology that is out there compared with ours," he said. "You see the avionics and all of the great progress that has been made. You make sure you are not too complacent, because the technology that they have is very competitive with technology that we have." "

Iama

And another artcile with Gen. Jumper, about F-22 - USAF Chief Defends “Critical” F-22 Raptor:

Raptor Important Tool in Maintaining Air Dominance


Source: US Air Force


"WASHINGTON --- Critics of the F/A-22 Raptor claim the aircraft is a "Cold War weapons system," but the Air Force chief of staff said it is a critical tool in maintaining air dominance.

"The Cold War ended, but the airplanes that were built to fight in the Cold War are still in production and have been delivered around the world," Gen. John P. Jumper said. "Even more formidable for us, they were also constructing a new generation of surface-to-air missiles. Those missiles have also been built and their designs advanced, and they are also being delivered around the world."

The Cold War may be over, but the weapons designed to fight it are still in production and in the hands of America's enemies -- both known and unknown. It is that unchecked proliferation of weapons systems that could one day threaten America's air superiority, he said.

"It is not the Cold War, but these systems that were being built for the Cold War are still being advanced today and are being proliferated around the world to create contested airspace," General Jumper said. "We must be able to access and operate in that contested airspace."

The general said the F/A-22 will help the Air Force secure that air space.

With the F/A-22, the B-52 Stratofortress or any other aircraft in the inventory, the ability to adapt is critical. General Jumper said versatility is key in keeping the Air Force fleet modern and ready to fight.

"What we have to understand is that the inventory we have in the Air Force today is going to be with us 15 years from now," he said. "We don't just do away with a whole inventory and replace it, so we had better figure out how to make this inventory work in the environments where we exist."

One example of that versatility is the B-52. It was designed more than half a century ago to fight the Cold War. Today, it is performing modern missions and proves indispensable in the war on terror, General Jumper said.

"The B-52 was built in the 1950s to drop nuclear weapons into the old Soviet Union," he said. "Right now we have a laser designator pod on the B-52, we can load it up with laser-guided weapons, and it goes around able to do anything from interdiction to fixed target destruction of communications nodes to close-air support."

The B-52 and other aircraft will have greater access to those targets in the future because of the F/A-22, General Jumper said. With its stealth and supercruise characteristics, it will be able to precede other aircraft into combat zones to clear out any threats.

Those advanced abilities allow Air Force warfighters to modify its air dominance tactics as needed.

"We adapt to the situation," the general said, "and young (and) technically proficient people figure out how to make these things relevant in the environment we are in."

Those technically proficient young people include the Airmen who have been tasked with maintaining the F/A-22. General Jumper said that in the Raptor, those Airmen have been given an aircraft that is easier to maintain than aircraft of the past.

"When you go around the F/A-22 Raptor, you see all the crew chiefs and the mechanics doing the Toyota leap with how happy they are with what they've got," he said.

The F/A-22 includes an automated diagnostics system that tells maintainers what is wrong with the airplane and an engine that has all of the accessible hydraulics lines on the bottom side so it is easier to maintain, General Jumper said. Additionally, he said, the aircraft is designed to be maintained with only a small number of tools.

The general said the Raptor, with its versatility and maintainability, is a vital component in the Air Force's air-dominance arsenal of the future. "

If stealth capability is ignored, who is the best? F-22 or Typhoon? With engines capable to do vectorial jet (*?), Typhoon can be above F-22? How important is super-cruise speed in one-versus-one fight? F-22 can be detected on IR sensors like on russian planes nose?


Iama

Iamandy I have a better suggestion.
Please create a Topic named Aerospace News , perhaps ask Victor to make it a sticky one. And place there all the news. Is hard to follow those news in every other Topic.
We could save this kind of topics for actual discution about the topic. What do you think?

Well, tomcat, this two were two articles with word of a US general who make flights on both planes.. You know more pilots with this experience?

And if we don't use articles, on what are to be based our discutions? Reading in stars? I don't have such good eyes..

And, what are you tryn to do, when you put admin name.. to atract his attention against me? the Romanian way...

If you say

why you don't put words on subject, or propose another "versus" subject, and be a nice guy?

Iama - Let's fight again, and let's ignore the ideea of make discution about interesting subjects...

You just got me wrong. Is about how to organise the Topics for easy read.
We can discuss it all what you want. Is about news thing only.
Sorry for missunderstanding.

Ok. Sorry, i think i'm tired about that "copy+paste" and "article", "news" thing...

Back to topic, about "versus".. How good will be F-22 Raptor in action? In a conflict in this modern concepts... terror war, assimetricall one.. Sure, F-22can beat MiG's to "29", Su's to "27", chinese planes to J-10 and "J-11" & imported SU-30, Mirage to "2000"... whitout problems. From "29", "27", etc.. up in stairs of much modern planes, it will be, for sure, more hard. What results can obtain F-22 in a conflict whith a country who had AWACS and AEW planes, skilled and trained pilots, planes with top electronics?
I remember about "stealth" - is hard detectable on radars. Conclusion => Is not so "stealth". How stealth is a stealth plane against new generation radars on last fighter generation?
After 2-3 readings of articles with general Jumper i realise something: he talks like an expert from a "Salon Auto".. Hey, this two new cars had top ergonomy, advanced systems of air-bags, new alloys, and for sure are only for rich people. Nothing clear/concrete... American car is better on rain, and European one is.. He, the one who was in both planes, managed to be "diplomat" in his words... "terror war", "cooperation", " to kick down the door" - american way, "Afganistan", "Iraq", words... used and re-used in last time. Nothing about "versus"..

Iama

PS - 1.USA had a new concept? Some luxuriant machines like Raptor and B-1, B-2, in small nombers, and a lot of classichall ones to fill the frontline?
2.

3. i don't believe in terror war, new concepts, assimetrichall wars, etc. They are old, and for sure is not new concepts. From Bakunin catehism, and classichall assimetricall wars Germany against Czechoslovakia, Belgium, Holland, etc. Itally against Albania, Russia against Finland, and Baltic countrys, back to history in time of Empires with cards on the table, on Turks Empire against Balkan nations... I believe in real wars, with serious and hard enemys like China, Japan, India, Pakistan...

Well, i found this in a document named "THE QUEST FOR AIR DOMINANCE: F-22—COST VERSUS CAPABILITY" writed by Thomas W. Hampton, Major, USAF - Maxwell Air Force Base, Alabama, April 1998

But, this was writed in '98. 7 years ago... 7 years, enough time for new systems to come to enemys of the F-22.

Counterstealth Concerns

"Since stealth is one of the F-22’s strong suits, it’s only fair that stealth
countermeasures be addressed when analyzing the F-22’s overall capabilities. While
there are some ground based radars that can detect stealthy aircraft, their detection ranges
are currently short. These systems include very high frequency waveband radar, bistatic
radar which uses non-collocated transmitters and receivers, ultra-wideband radar, and
over-the-horizon radar.10 Although some of these systems may be capable of detecting
stealthy aircraft, detection is not an end in itself. Effective air defense combines three
interrelated functions: detection, guidance, and kill. In order to achieve a 50 percent
probability of kill, each function must be carried out with an 80 percent or higher
probability of success.11 While detecting a stealthy fighter is one thing, guiding a
surface-to-air missile to an intercept within fuzing distance and lethal warhead radius is
quite another. Additionally, none of the radars listed above are suitable for employment
onboard aircraft, especially fighters.
While it’s reasonable to expect stealth technology to be overcome in time, there are
at least three reasons why this won’t render the F-22 ineffective. First, it will be very
costly to develop air defense systems capable of easily detecting and destroying stealthy
aircraft. The price tag alone will put counterstealth systems out of reach for many
potential adversaries. Second, supercruise will allow the F-22 to transit through the
weapons engagement zone of enemy air defense systems quickly, thus shrinking the
kinematic envelope and reducing the effectiveness of all SAMs. Third, the F-22’s
integrated avionics suite, using inputs from both on and offboard sensors, will detect,
identify, and locate threat radars, allowing the Raptor pilot to maneuver as required to
avoid or minimize detection and engagement. While its capabilities, especially against
SAM systems, may be degraded by counterstealth technology, the F-22 will still retain a
first look, first shot, first kill capability against all projected future fighter threats."

Iama

After some posts related to F-22 Raptor plane, is time to say something about Eurofighter Typhoon, his virtual competitor and coleague in close future time, for "terorr war" and other conflicts. I read this article, and i was impressed. Another article were Typhoon gain good words for his agility.


Automatic Low Speed Recovery tested
Source : EADS Author : jwcook

"MUNICH / MANCHING, Germany --- The latest-generation combat aircraft Eurofighter Typhoon is known as the most agile fighter now on the market. The aircraft is praised for these qualities by all military experts who have flown it, including the chief of staff of the USAF.

One of the key features of the Eurofighter t aircraft is the quadruplex fly-by-wire Flight Control System (FCS), which provides the aircraft its outstanding manoeuverability. FCS is also an important prerequisite for the Eurofighter’s unique carefree handling qualities, enabling the pilot to concentrate on his mission rather than on basic airwork.

With the first flights of GS002, the first flown production single-seater for the German Air Force, a new and important feature of the overall carefree handling functionalities was flight-tested at the EADS Military Aircraft Flight Test Center at Manching in late October 2004: the Automatic Low-Speed Recovery system (ALSR).

ALSR prevents the Eurofighter aircraft from departing from controlled flight at very low speeds and high angles of attack. To achieve this, the ALSR, being an element of the overall FCS system, is able to detect a developing low-speed situation and to raise an audible and visual low-speed warning. Thus, the pilot will have sufficient time to react and to recover the aircraft manually. If the pilot doesn´t react or ignores the warning, the ALSR will actively take control of the aircraft, select maximum dry power for the engines and return the aircraft to a safe flight condition depending on the attitude by either using an ALSR “push”, “pull” or a “knife-over” manoeuvre.

The first pilot ever who fully exploited the ALSR capabilities in flight, doing this on Eurofighter production aircraft GS002, was EADS test pilot Karl-Heinz Mai, who described his experience with the new system: “It worked tremendously well – ALSR is a real confidence-maker in the low-speed area of the carefree handling envelope. I’m convinced this is one of the most impressive features of this aircraft !”

“After making a cautious approach to a few low-speed recovery corner points, I’ve gained confidence in the system so rapidly that I was able to enter the extreme low-speed recovery set-up with 70 degrees nose-up attitude and power idle without any hesitation”, said Mai. “The system then worked as described - without any pilot action. Impressive !”

Mai congratulated in particular the FCS engineers, who work in an area where EADS has overall design responsibility. He also praised both the ground- and flight test teams as well as the qualification and certification staff, who had made the ALSR and its proof of functionality for the production flight acceptance test of the single-seater aircraft such an overwhelming success. "


What about eastern side of the market? Certainly Typhoon enjoy good marketing, but ignoring that... we know one sure thing about Russian planes: they had the best maneuvrability!

So, is clear: F-22 is inferior in maneuvrability in face of Typhoon. If is not, is sure another thing: they are liars!!!


Iama

I found two news, one with F-22 and the second with Eurofighter.



Report: Flight Control Deficiency Causes Raptor Damage


Source: US Air Force; issued April 4


" WRIGHT-PATTERSON AIR FORCE BASE, Ohio --- An accident investigation board determined that a flight control system deficiency caused an F/A-22 Raptor aircraft mishap Sept. 28 near Edwards Air Force Base, Calif. The flight control system allowed the aircraft to exceed set angles of attack and G-force limits. The resulting aircraft damage is estimated at more than $3 million.

No fatalities, injuries or damage to private property resulted from the mishap, and the F/A-22 from the 411th Flight Test Squadron was able to land at Edwards.

The board found the primary cause of the mishap was a deficiency in the aircraft's flight control system, which provides aircraft stability, control and maneuvering agility.

The aircraft was flying a high-risk test mission with an F-16 Fighting Falcon. After encountering the F-16's jet wash, the Raptor experienced an unexpected and rapid pitch oscillation. The mission was to test air-to-air tracking scenarios to evaluate handling qualities with a configuration of two external fuel tanks.

The aircraft's load factor or G-force limits in this configuration were 7.33 and minus 0.5. During the test, the load factors ranged between 10.1 to minus 11.7.

The aircraft, one of the Air Force's first F/A-22s, is primarily a testing aircraft.


And the second, related to Typhoon:

"BAE Systems Bids Farewell to 17 ® Sqn as They Head for New Home at RAF Coningsby


Source: BAE Systems


"The first Royal Air Force Typhoon squadron left BAE Systems Warton site today, bound for RAF Coningsby in Lincolnshire, their first RAF base in the UK.

The squadron, which has been based at Warton for the past fifteen months under the ' Case White ' Entry Into Service programme, is responsible for the Operational Test and Evaluation of the RAF ' s newest combat aircraft. 17 Sqn is led by Wg Cdr Jon Hitchcock, who flew the aircraft this morning - which also happens to be the first production standard single-seat aircraft to be delivered to the RAF.

Case White, the partnered programme which sees Typhoon delivered to the RAF at Warton in order to ease the aircraft ' s entry to service, has been a resounding success. The first squadron are heading off to Coningsby on schedule, and Typhoon has outperformed the highest expectations of reliability and serviceability, with the team outflying even the stretch target by as much as 15%, and more than 1300 flying hours completed.

The Case White programme continues, with 29 Sqn due to move to Coningsby in the summer. Further pilots will begin flying training next week, and RAF ground crew will progressively take over operations in preparation for the move. "

Wg Cdr Hitchcock said:

"Bringing Typhoon into service in a partnered programme like Case White has been really beneficial, allowing us to build up knowledge and experience while taking advantage of the infrastructure and expertise BAE Systems has built up in developing the aircraft. But it will be a tremendous feeling for us all on 17 Sqn when we take this aircraft - and I ' m very proud to be flying our first single seat today - to RAF Coningsby, where it belongs. "


The Eurofighter Typhoon is the world's most advanced swing-role combat aircraft, developed by the leading aerospace companies, Alenia Aeronautica, BAE Systems and EADS, of the four partner countries, Germany, Italy, Spain and the United Kingdom. Eurofighter Typhoon features unrivalled technology, designed for the defence needs of the 21st Century.

Agile and highly maneuverable, the twin-engine Eurofighter Typhoon is designed to operate from hastily prepared bases and small runways for worldwide operations. It is equipped with an advanced multi-mode radar and an extensive range of sensors and electronic countermeasures.

The aircraft's ability to gain air superiority beyond visual range (BVR) and in close combat, and at the same time deliver high sortie rates against air, naval and ground targets in all weathers with a variety of weapons, demands close attention to pilot workload. In Eurofighter the pilot flies through use of a computerised flight control system, which offers full carefree handling.

A strong emphasis has been placed on reducing cost of ownership in addition to outstanding performance and flight safety. Reliability, low cost of maintenance and a sophisticated on-board testing system ensure ease of day to day management and through life costs. Eurofighter Typhoon is less expensive to run than the generation of aircraft it is designed to replace.

The Eurofighter partner nations will take delivery of 620 aircraft: 180 for Germany, 121 for Italy, 87 for Spain and 232 for the United Kingdom. Almost 40 aircraft have been delivered and are in service around Europe

Austria recently confirmed its contract for the purchase of 18 aircraft, and Eurofighter Typhoon has also been selected by Greece to meet its requirements for a future fighter. The Royal Norwegian Ministry of Defence has agreed an industrial participation programme with Eurofighter for the future enhancement of the weapon system, and Singapore has selected Eurofighter Typhoon for the final phase of its Next Generation Fighter competition.


BAE Systems has major operations across five continents and customers in some 130 countries. The company has more than 90,000 people and generates annual sales of over £13 billion through its wholly-owned and joint venture operations. "

Iama

OH! No! NO! No! No!

What can do a visit in US!

Greek Government Rethinks Eurofighter Deal


Source: Agence France Presse - issued April 9


"ATHENS --- Greece is reconsidering a project by the former Socialist government to buy 60 Eurofighter jets for its air force, the defence ministry said on Saturday.

The Eurofighter is built by a four-nation consortium involving the European Aeronautic Defence and Space Co (EADS), BAE Systems and Finmeccanica unit Alenia.

As both the Greek prime minister and defence minister are due to visit the US in the coming weeks the press here is speculating the government may choose the US F-16 instead.

"The government has so far taken no decision concerning the choice of company from which to buy the fourth generation jets. All options remain open," defence ministry spokesman Stephanos Guikas told AFP.

"A decision on the matter of our arms programme for the 2006-2010 period will be taken in the coming months," he added.

The former Socialist government's decision to buy 60 Eurofighter jets was frozen when the conservative New Democracy party won a general election in March 2004.

Greek Defence Minister Spilios Spiliotopoulos is to visit Washington in late April for what Guikas said would be a "political-military meeting for talks on bilateral relations between NATO and Greece". "

Iama

The Reds wanted to buy 60 Eurofighters, but the New Democracy party showed up and saved the day. Leftist eurocentric villains are kept at bay!
And the people of Lockheedsville live to work another day!!! Or work to live another day... or...


oh, the end

Why they don't change the Eurofighter option for Mitsubishi F-2? Ok, Japan is not in UE and is not USA.. But F-2 is superior tu F-16, and Japan is a friendly country to NATO..

Anyway Eurofighter is on the road, on his way, at least in his parental countrys:

Eurofighter Single-Seaters In Operational Service with the Luftwaffe


Source: EADS Military Aircraft


"MUNICH/MANCHING, Germany --- EADS Military Aircraft has handed over the first single-seater operational Eurofighter aircraft to Fighter Wing 73 (JG 73) "Steinhoff" in Laage near Rostock.

This is the first of a further ten single-seaters that are still to be delivered to the operational wing in the course of the year. In addition to these delivery quantities, this year a further twin-seater will also be put at the wing's disposal. This was announced by EADS, the German and Spanish partner in the four-nation European programme, on Monday.

Through the single-seaters, the German Air Force is now in a position to extend the ongoing Eurofighter operational evaluation to also include this configuration of the aircraft and conduct practical tests to confirm fulfilment of the specific air force requirements. Furthermore, the mission pilots can now continue their tactical training on the single-seater Eurofighters. The twin-seaters that have already been in operational service for some time mainly serve as a means of conversion training for pilots being instructed on this latest-generation advanced flying weapon system.

The Eurofighter that has just been handed over bears the production number GS004 (GS standing for German Single-Seater) and is already the second single-seater Eurofighter to be delivered to the Luftwaffe. The first Eurofighter in this configuration originating from final assembly at Manching and destined for the Bundeswehr was ferried to the Air Force School of Engineering No. 1 at Kaufbeuren on 14 February 2005. There, the aircraft is serving to train technicians and ground crews on this new model for the German Air Force.

The handover of the single-seater on Friday means that 35 Eurofighters in all have now been delivered to the four partner countries: 31 twin-seaters and now four single-seaters as fully operational aircraft. During the current year, it is planned to deliver a further 39 aircraft to the partner nations. At the moment, operational evaluation is getting underway in all the partner countries’ air forces.

Additional to the Eurofighter aircraft already handed over to the customers, all 148 Tranche 1 production aircraft are currently in the process of construction. The production contract for the second tranche was signed by Eurofighter Jagdflugzeug GmbH and NETMA (NATO Eurofighter and Tornado Management Agency) on 14.12.2004.

The Military Aircraft Business Unit, which is an integrated part of the EADS Defence and Security Systems Division (DS), concentrates all the EADS capabilities in the areas of high-performance combat aircraft, unmanned combat air vehicles (UCAVs), manned mission aircraft and training aircraft and the ground support equipment for these systems.

EADS Defence & Security Systems, with revenues of about EUR 5.4 billion in 2004 and roughly 24,000 employees across ten nations, forms the defence pole within EADS. It offers integrated systems solutions to the new challenges confronting armed forces and homeland security units. It is active in the areas of military aircraft, missile systems, Intelligence, Surveillance and Reconnaissance (ISR) systems with manned and unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs), battlefield management systems, defence electronics, sensors and avionics, and related services.

EADS is a global leader in aerospace, defence and related services. In 2004, EADS generated revenues of EUR 31.8 billion and employed a workforce of about 110,000. "


Iama

If anyone want to debate a new subject in this "Versus", is wellcome. Maybe next subject can present much interest from more members.

From a chinese forum, i quoted this:

Iama