Korean War

Nobody has military respect for North Korea!
North Korea was systematically beaten 50-and-something years ago. Since then it has remained isolated, living in the Middle Ages. For North Koreans escaping to the South the experience is something like time-travel. I've read they have to be assigned private tutors just to teach them how to use the basic services and appliances in a 21st century city.
As for its military... nobody is afraid to face it. Sure, every normal person is worried about the threatened missile-rain on Seoul, or about the DPRK launching a nuke. But is that.... military respect?

I don't know what you heard about the world famous North Korean army, but I sure haven't. What are you talking about?

Secondly, and most importantly in any intelligence assessment about the feasability of a nuclear program --- the Ally and ITS interests.
What world power would be interested in a nuclear Romania so as to provide it with technological assistance, and also protect her from moves to prevent her nuclear program?
We know -- Pakistan had China as its protector and helper; Iran has Russia; Israel had France and US; the nuclear European countries had the US... etc.

Who would have an interest in a nuclear Romania? Nobody.
That means Romania could be far easier isolated or disarmed than any other country that has a larger protector.
Nobody wants a nuclear arms race in Eastern Europe. If Romania arms, Hungary will try to arm too, as will Ukraine.

I don't know where you are getting this from, but the militaries which are most likely to face North Korea have plenty of respect for them. And it's not just the nukes and chemical weapons... they have fantastic amounts of artillery, enough armor to be a threat, and lots of tough aggressive infantry. All of it forward deployed along the DMZ with plenty of ammo and fuel. Also, look at the terrain they are deployed in, it would not be the shooting gallery for air power that Iraq was.

Systematically beaten 50 years ago? Hardly. They fought the richest country in the world to a standstill, and it had plenty of good allies and was only 5 years removed from victory in WW2. Yes, Korea had allies too... allies who would not be there this time. The Korean War is called "the forgotten war" in the US, but it was no garden party.

Yeah, the rest of their society is in the Middle Ages. But you don't need a mobile phone and 100 TV channels to be a good fighter.

I'm sure they would lose in the end, but if they fought, they could cause lots of pain before they went under.

Yes, this has nothing to do with the forum topic... my apologies.

One additional note: About Victor's point ("How much respect does North Korea have"), that's true.... having a few nuclear missiles does not give you international influence, at least not the kind that any respectable country wants. Neither does having a military like North Korea's. It is good for one thing, and one thing only. (Oh, sorry, 2 things....bankrupting the country being No. 2)

This post has been edited by Jeff_S on February 18, 2005 04:59 pm

The North Koreans were systematically defeated in the Korean War. By the time the Chinese stepped in, the DPRK divisions were only a shadow of the former "we-took-Seoul-in-3-days" force. They were completely broken down to isolated remnants making their way North through the mountains and to guerilla units.
As the US raced for the Yalu the North Koreans sent 9 broken divisions in Manchuria to reorganise (and escape from the US advance). Pyongyang was a disappointment in the annals of urban warfare as the fight for Baghdad 2003.
So I don't know what standstill you talk about.
The Chinese were the ones that changed the course of the Korean War, the North Koreans were as good as beaten.

I think the North Koreans gave a good account of themselves until Inchon. I don't recall their assault on the Pusan perimeter being taken lightly by the UN forces. True, they were defeated in the end by superior technology and firepower. But they came quite close to toppling the south. Tough guys.

Well, the perimeter survived... Which was supposed to do (hence the standstill was in fact its mission), and the North Koreans went on grinding themselves against it with no success.
Was that the greatest day of the world-respected North Korean Army forcing the richest nation to a standstill? Wow!!!

That sounds like an excuse, like it was "unfair", and if it wasnt for that "bad" technology and firepower the world-renowed North Korean Army would have showed those evil yanks its true force... Rrrrespect!
Also, you mentioned Inchon. That was brainpower, not firepower, right?

It did but the issue wasn't all that clear at some point.

I'm not sure what you mean here.

I'm afraid you read things I didn't write. Technology (here mostly under the form of air superiority)and firepower are indeed quite important things in modern war and it gave a usefull edge to US forces in a difficult time. All accounts I read on the defense of the Pusan perimeter by witnesses, combattants and historians show that it was all but a cakewalk. I don't remember to have included ideological hogwash into my statements that need to be adressed

Both. Inchon was a daring move using one of the US strong points : naval mobility. It really broke the back of the North Korean offensive. I would say it accelerated their collapse, for after the missed attack on Pusan, the writing was on the wall for them one way or the other.

Well, didn't standstill come sometime after Truman called Gen McArthur home...remember? An amazing chapter in U.S. history where an egomaniacal General thought he could operate independent of civilian control. Basically wanted to invade China...Wouldn't THAT have been fun!

Agree with your overarching point though, re the folly of underestimation of NK conventional forces. I don't think the U.S. keeps troops along that parrallel just because we can't figure out what else to do with em.

Ofcourse it wasnt, who said a battle is a cakewalk?
The whole discussion started from the assertion that the North Korean army is militarily respected and that 5 decades ago it was not systematically defeated, but moreover it managed to force the richest nation in the world to a standstill.

Now before we continue, I think it would be better to define what we understand by "militarily respected". Do we judge it from a broader perspective or from the point of view of the front line man?
If we mean by "militarily respected" just the capacity of inflicting casualties, then I agree, the North Korean army today is capable of that.
If we mean by it the larger capacity of waging a whole campaign in all its complexities - of inflicting strategical losses and of successfuly countering measures aimed to eliminate the industrial and logistical lifelines that support the capacity to inflict casualties, then I doubt North Korea qualifies for that. (nuclear weapons not included)
And it did not qualify during the Korean War either.
It lacked airforce, it lacked navy, it lacked AA batteries or they werent enough for both troops and industrial targets.

Coming back to the tactical level. They had the powerful T-34. And they inflicted casualties with it, until they ran out of fuel and had to walk back home.
Does that make them militarily respected or rather the opposite?

p.s. relax, I read nothing ideological... my reply was friendly, sorry if it sounded otherwise... I try to use as many smilies as possible yet without making all my messages circus posters. sometimes its hard to find the right balance.

Ah, I misunderstood then.

Well this is bullshit. They wreaked havoc as long as their logistical tail managed to hold things together. I agree that in the great picture a country like N Korea could simply not compete with the US military might and infrastructure.

But those guys in the front line where fine soldiers even if the the wisdom of the campaign was questionable. However they *did* have a chance and they made a lot of people sweat. Koreans, well led, well supplied make fearsome soldiers. The ROK corps in Vietnam is testament to that.

See above

Ah yes we have some specialists on this forum

History Channel aired a silly documentary about MacArthur. Some "historians" completely disregarding the military situation at the time, start mocking MacArthur and make him look like some kind of looney general.

Actually MacArthur was the victim of the civilians back home which constantly interfered with necessary military actions on the ground.

For example one "historian" in the documentary says something like: "MacArthur actually wanted to bomb everything standing at the border with China"

While other "historian" previously said: " MacArthur knew there were 200,000 chinese in front of him but he kept the administration in the dark"

First of all he wanted to bomb the bridges to stop the chinese from crossing, not "everything standing" as that historian-with-a-political-agenda said.
Secondly, the civilian administration itself made sure of hampering that effort.
Also, one should not forget that the civilian administration itself gave MacArthur the go-ahead to cross the 38th into North Korea.

There are more things to say, but I think the civilians have a lot to answer for, but this type of one-sided documentaries, disregarding the military facts on the ground, actually covers their a****.

This post has been edited by Imperialist on April 06, 2005 08:30 pm

Seems like in a future war between the two Koreeas we will see russian armed North against Occident and Russia armed South:

"Russia May Repay Loan with Advanced Weapons


Korean Information Service


The Defense Ministry said on Wednesday (April 20) that it will ask Russia to transfer its advanced weapons systems, including an anti-aircraft guided missile system, to South Korea as part of a loan-repayment program.

During a four-day visit to Russia, Defense Minister Yoon Kwang-ung will meet his Russian counterpart Sergey Borisovich Ivanov to discuss a range of issues to boost bilateral military cooperation, including Russia's loan repayment by providing weapons supplies, the ministry's spokesman Shin Hyun-don said.

"Yoon will negotiate the transfer of advanced Russian weapons systems during a meeting with Ivanov," said Shin.

Seoul and the Kremlin have engaged in a weapons deal, dubbed the "Brown Bear" project, since 1995, when the Russian government proposed to pay back its overdue loans extended by the Seoul government in 1991.

Seoul extended $1.47 billion in bank loans and a $470 million commodity for the former Soviet Union in 1991. That year, the two countries established diplomatic ties. "

Iama

Not closely related to the (past) Korean war; nevertheless, hilarious comments by North Korea's official Korean Central News Agency, regarding Bush (from CNN.com):

"Bush is a hooligan bereft of any personality as a human being ... and a philistine whom we can never deal with."

"Bush is, indeed, a world dictator whose hands are stained with the blood shed by innocent civilians."

"Over more than four years since Bush's inauguration (North Korea) has shown utmost magnanimity and patience," the North Korean spokesman said Saturday. "It can no longer do so, waiting for any shift in the U.S. policy."



Gen. Dénes

I'm going to miss Kim Jong Il. The world is running out of leaders who have a good touch with extreme rhetoric. Castro is still good for quantity, but the quality is not there.

I remember when I was teaching Soviet politics (1988-89), I made my students read some Lenin and Trotsky, just so they would see how real revolutionaries write.

And I don't think I have ever met a native speaker of English who uses the word "hooligan".

Really????? What would u call the material being spouted lately by Delay and the rest of the "Christian" right wing? Especiallly the anti-judicial ranting... sounds pretty extreme to me. Only not half as funny as KIJII.

Really????? What would u call the material being spouted lately by Delay and the rest of the "Christian" right wing? Especiallly the anti-judicial ranting... sounds pretty extreme to me. Only not half as funny as KIJII.

True. Perhaps Kim Jong Il would not be so funny if he was within artillery range.

IMHO, the US "Christian" right -- its elected officials, anyway -- don't come close to Kim Jong Il for overheated rhetoric. Kerry was called "unfit to command", but not "a hooligan bereft of any personality as a human being".

The anti-judicial ranting is scary, but I would still place it (barely) within the boundary of the normal, boring American politics. And we will see what happens to Congressman DeLay -- he's not out of the woods yet. If it emerges that he rides around in an armored train... that his mother must always be referred to as "Revolutionary General Mrs. DeLay"... and that he has a 700-member "pleasure team" of Scandinavian prostitutes, then I might reconsider. But for now KJI takes the prize.