Capture of Debretin (Debrecen) : Losses of TV Division

[Geto-Dacul]

The Tudor Vladimirescu Soviet Divison made from Romanian "volunteers" captured on the Eastern Front mainly during the harsh winter of 1942-43 participated in important actions on the "Western Front". One of these important operation was the capture of the town of Debretin (Hungary) were the division entered on 20th October 1944. I am interested to know the exact number of losses of the TV division during that operation, because I heard that she lost 2/3 of its personel!!! (nearly 6.000 men) Is that real?

[Victor]

Yes, the losses were very high. The TV Division entered the first line in September 1944, in Transylvania. As it reached the Hungarian border, it was engaged in the offensive towards Debrecen. During these operations, the CO, general Nicolae Cambrea was wounded. The political officer gave the command to colonel Mircea Haupt, probably the poorest officer of the Division, according to some. He had been captured in 1941, when he was only a captain (at the age of 48!!!). Among the survivors there was a small poem going around about Haupt:

Iesi Tudore din mormant
Sa vezi cati panduri mai sunt.
Si tu, Haupt, din popota
Sa vezi cati mai sunt pe cota.

On the other hand, the 3rd Mountain Division, which also took, part in the battle of Debrecen, did not suffer too many casualties. Of course these were more flexible and better-trained mountain troops, who had the benefit of an excellent commander (gen. Leonard Mociulschi, Mihai Viteazu Order and KC holder).

[Geto-Dacul]

Victor, thanks for the info. I also read somewhere that the TV Division fought against an SS Divison at Debretin, equipped with Panthers! Were the Romanian "volunteers" supported by some armour (Soviet of course) during their 1944-45 campaign?

Best regards.

[Victor]

Yes, I think they were. At least the 3rd Mountain Division was on some occasions. I will look into it and if I found something interesting I will let you know.

[daveh]

Is there an english source for the OOB and history of the Tudor Vladimirescu Divison?
Was it raised fro POW's or from Romanian communist violunteers from eg those parts of romania occupied by the soviets in 1940?

[Hohenstaufen]

Getu',

Here is an excerpt from http://members.tripod.com/~Sturmvogel/roma....html#Heading57 concerning T-34 usage:

"The TO&E of the Soviet-sponsored "Tudor Vladimirescu" Division, where such tanks [T-34's] would logically appear, lists an abundance of artillery but no armour. On the other hand, passing references appear in several sources of "Red Romanians" riding atop T-34's by the end of the war (some of Skorzeny's commandoes even passing themselves off as such with captured T-34's in 1945). Final decision regarding Romanian use of 85mm models of T-34's must remain pending, but seems unlikely."

As for the structure of this division... I have no idea.

[Geto-Dacul]

daveh wrote :

QUOTE

Is there an english source for the OOB and history of the Tudor Vladimirescu Divison?

Axworthy, Mark, Scafes, and Craciunoiu
Third Axis Fourth Ally: Rumanian Armed Forces in the European War
London: Arms and Armour, 1995

In this book, they talk a little bit about the TV Division, but not too much.

QUOTE

Was it raised fro POW's or from Romanian communist violunteers from eg those parts of romania occupied by the soviets in 1940?

It's really HARD to say that there were ROMANIAN communist volunteers... A part from some minorities (Jews and Russian partizans), the national spirit was uniformely ANTI-communist. During the occupation of Bessarabia and N.Bucovina by USSR in 1940, there were some 30.000 Romanian military personnel captured with it. These guys were directly send in gulag, maybe none of them survived. The TV Division was officially raised in 1943, and that from Romanian prisoneers from 22 June 1941 to date, but MOSTLY from the newly captured soldiers at Stalingrad. The ~10.000 who made up the division were more "opportunists" (who wanted to go back in Romania with the division, but not to serve on the front). There was an anecdote about a group of friends who entered TV Division to go home, and when arrived in Romania, deserted. They were found and shot on place. They dies shouting "Long live Romania!"...

Hohenstaufen wrote :

QUOTE

Getu',   Here is an excerpt from http://members.tripod.com/~Sturmvogel/roma....html#Heading57 concerning T-34 usage:   \"The TO&E of the Soviet-sponsored \"Tudor Vladimirescu\" Division, where such tanks [T-34's] would logically appear, lists an abundance of artillery but no armour. On the other hand, passing references appear in several sources of \"Red Romanians\" riding atop T-34's by the end of the war (some of Skorzeny's commandoes even passing themselves off as such with captured T-34's in 1945). Final decision regarding Romanian use of 85mm models of T-34's must remain pending, but seems unlikely.\"   As for the structure of this division... I have no idea.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR THE INFO!

[Victor]

OoB for Tudor Vladimirescu Division:
-3 panduriregiments (1-3)
-1 artillery regiment
-AT battalion
-pioneer battalion
-recon company
-communications company

The infantry regiment had 3 battalions, each with 3 companies (one company=3 rifle platoons and oneMG and 50 mm mortar platoon), one MG and 82 mm mortar company (3 platoons). At regimental level there was also one AT company (36 AT rifles), one 120 mm mortar battery, one 76.2 mm gun battery, one 45 mm AT gun battery.

The artillery regiment had 3 battalions: 2 with 76.2 mm guns (12 each) and one with 122 mm howitzers (12).

[Csaba Becze]

Victor, panduri means infantry in Rumanian language? Seems close to Hungarian pandúr word. Same roots?

BTW, what was this high loss of the TV division exactly during the battle for Debrecen?

Csaba

[Dénes]

Both words have common root and mean the same: outlaw (bandit). It may also have a paramilitary 'freedom fighter' connotation.

Dénes

[Victor]

QUOTE

Victor, panduri means infantry in Rumanian language?

The panduri were Romanian volunteers serving in special detachments in the Russian army at the beginning of the 19th century. They had an important role in the 1821 Revolution (the leader of the revolution was a panduri commander)

[Csaba Becze]

Hmm, thanks for this info.
Dénes, the Hungarian pandúr's were not 'bandits', it was a kind of policeman-corps, but not too succesful and was disbanded. Later the csendőr (gendarmerie) troops were better.

Csaba

[Dénes]

You're right Csaba about the Hungarian meaning of 'pandúr'. When I posted my reply I was at work and had no literature handy. That's why I assosiated pandúr with 'betyár', i.e. outlaw.

It turns out that pandúr is indeed a field gendarme - predating the csendör - previosuly known as 'zsandár', although the origin of the word means a mercenary foot soldier.

Dénes

[Florin]

Hi Geto-Dac,

You don't have to be so surprised about the losses of Tudor Vladimirescu.
Somebody I knew for at least 10 years told me short before he died that he was in Tudor Vladimirescu.
He told me how the incompetent commander (which of them, I forgot; maybe that colonel Mircea Haupt mentioned by Victor) sent them once to attack without artillery support and without armored support.

The same old guy told me how once they were lured into a trap by the Germans. That was in Hungary.
Well, in the trap they were not waited by the Panthers mentioned by you. Just some Tigers... painted in the same shade with the surrounding corn plantation. I was told that the Romanians were as close as 10 meters from the Germans, and still did not see them. According to that guy, only 2 (two) men survived that day from the whole battalion: he and another one.
Supposing these statements are true, the overall losses are not at all surprising.
Regards,
Florin