Dark Blue World

It is a movie about pilots fighting for their country, it is very good - I recommend it to you all.Although it is not about romanian pilots, you can read between the lines and see how pilots from X-comunist countries were treated after the war by the brutal comunist regime.

I would like to Salute all of them, all those pilots who fought for their country no matter which country that was, ~Salute~ !

Where did you find this mouvie?

Fratello

Dark Blue World is a Czech / UK film produced by Sony about WWII Czech AF pilots who escaped to the UK and fought for the RAF, their story before the German occupation during their service with RAF and their abusive punishment by the commy Stalinist Czech government after returning from UK ( those who were silly to return) an avenue similar to the ARR pilots punished and jailed by the dumn Anna Pauker , Maurer and Dej governments......while the ARR fought for the nazzi war machinery the Czechs were on the right side and yet ended in prisons.

They were rehabilitated only on the 80's

Excellent motion picture , top level and in since at least 1 1/2 year on the W.European markets

Al

The ARR fought side by side with germans ( not all the german pilots were nazis) against Soviet bolshevics forces to recover the stollen Bassarabia.
After the war the U.S., Great Britain and west european country fought in cold war
against comunist est countries( given to Stalin at Yalta).
So who fought at the right side? ARR against comunist in WWII ( who stolled lands by force) or Western countries ( with US and GBR) who fought against comunist after WWII ?

All the time we forget that Romanias had no choice ( Stalin or Hitler ?).

Dan.

Dan

I could agree with you except with one.....Rumanian pilots had absolutely the similar chances to escape to UK and fight on the right side ...not even one Rumanian pilot was with the multinational contingency during WWII such as the Czechs, Poles, French any many other who went to the West....I agree that Stalin illegally siezed Rumanian land ,though this still didnt give the right to Rumania , Croatia ,Italians and Spanish to go to Stalingard and Leningrad and commit war crimes against the Russians and between us Dan , there were alot of pilots at ARR who were proud conducting the war along with the Germans ....

but Dan lets not go into this because I will have hundreds of counter arguments......the resons that Stalin and the commies destroyed your country throughout the years ...is also thanks to the Germans who devasted Rumania and for the kind of inexplicable obedience in Rumania either to Monarchs, Fascists, Germans , Comunists ,all kind of dictators and it took Rumania 45 years to go the streets .

Rumania if you will, had the same potential like Yugoslavia to fight the nazzies and conduct a currageous partizan war against them, rather join the tirrany and commit war attrocities in Stalingrad and Leningrad . Anyways, lets leave it here.

Al

This post has been edited by alexkdl on March 08, 2005 05:26 pm

And what attrocities exactly did romanian army comitted ? As a matter of fact I read a source (a biritish historian who lived in USSR during ww2 and wrote about the war) that romanian troops not only had a very good "comportament" toward local populations in USSR but they also helped them - many said it was much better under romanian troops then under russian troops (and this in USSR ).Besides why would romanian pilot flee the country ? they had no reason to do so, they had to fight for their own country right here and not flee to UK... but this thread was about something totally different.

One more thing: I would not call those who returned to their countries after fighting for Allied forces from UK "silly" that is most oofensive ! I really did not expect that from you Alex...

Alex, things aren't black and white. The situation and circumstances were complex, and the idea of ARR pilots fleeing to UK to fight for the "right side" is at best hilarious. First of all, Romania was not an occupied country, and the ARR pilots were fighting for their country, not for Germany, nor for UK. Second, in 1941, some of the military men entered the war against Soviet Union with enthusiasm, to clean the shame of the lost territories without fighting back. The situation became a little more complicated after 1941, when some opposed to the advance beyond Dniester, and the Romanian-German relations became tense, but not at the level of pilots (from what I know there was a high level of comradery in arms between Luftwaffe and ARR pilots) so not even then the issue of desertion can be discussed.

Mytzu

I think you missed the point , the issue is that I didn't generalise Rumanian troops and stampped them as criminals and fascists....Your comment that Rumanian troops were welcomer as the Soviet were , is historically correct and politically atrocious which applies in Ukraine and White Russia ....the same people have also welcomed the Whermacht , SS and SD troops too....these people not only divulged partisans ,soviet soldiers but aimed too in having all jews exterminated.......the other who welcomed the Germans were in certain Russian poverty areas....but this was only for a while ......however in due course of the occupation....their enthusiasm for the " Liberators" fadded away when Gauleiter Koch went against internal recommandations from Whermacht and gave them "second class human being" treatment too.

I can agree with you that part of the Rumanian troops had a correct conduct and acted under army codex, the other part were convinced fascists eventually SS you subordinated divisions who would kill for fun...however both categories were in Crimea, Stalingrad and Soviet mainland and not in Bucharest ...and there they had no business to do at all ....imagine the same will occur in your own country....you won't give a ratt ass ..... if their conduct is wright or wrong ...the main thing they concurred your country and straving to kill you and your family and your fellow citizen , period.

Finally is me and not you who should be disappointed ,because you didn't understand the meaning of the Czech pilot issue at all.

RAF offered those pilots a safe place and job until the political situation would improve in their own country...by saying "silly " I meant , those who chose to return prior the improvements took place and ended ups years and years in prison some of them have even have died during their senseless Czech Stalinist detention...those who waited, came back later on unscaved....so what is it you are trying to say ? You would have acted exactly the same .

I suggest you to better see this film and generally review again your points of view before rushing into judgement

Take Care

This post has been edited by alexkdl on March 09, 2005 12:31 pm

Dragos I agree with you on basics...but this topic could bring endless arguments and emotions , I would like to discuss with you but I see some personal things picking up again one post before yours...

As a matter of fact I made just one comment about a Czech pilot ,similar to other topics someone picks a small point out of it , the next makes a comma out of it the last mixes it with emotions etc etc ... that evolves later into all kind of controvercies and personal stuff ....I'm therefore out of this non related topic.

Anyone is welcome to change history and make out of their own impressions and believes what the want and whenever they feel like ....these people should therefore understand and accept opinions not in line with their owns


Al

PS: Dragos regarding Luftwaffe / ARR comredory in arms...yes as long the Luftwaffe was in Rumania and depended on Rumanian services....however from all my previous posts and facts you certainly noted that I have met many Luftwaffe vets between them "Bubby" Hartmann, G.Rall, Grislaswsky,W.Krupinsky and Maj Rudi Klemm CO JG54who was my friend for many years here in Switzerland .......at the Luftwaffe fronts else but Rumania , just a minority shared the opinion that the Rumanians and Italians were comrades in arms with Luftwaffe ...Spanish and Finns were substantially better seen and honoured.....Rumanians and Italians pilots were in general understimated and not trusted. For sure you and I share other views about ARR than the Germans .

Cantacuziono and Serbanescu were seen as colateral aces by the Luftwaffe where in fact many of pilots ranked as enlisted (unterOffiziere)such as Grislawski had a minimum of 60 kills ......I am not asking you to agree , but I wish that these aces in similar to Dobran were still alive today. After Hartmann retirement from Bundeswehr and while beforte his death he become an FAA designee near Stuttgart ...I used to talk to him during the late 80's about Rumanian pilots and ARR..I wish you was there too , mate ! RUDY KLEMM

This post has been edited by alexkdl on March 09, 2005 12:30 pm

Let's keep the discussions regarding war crimes in already existing topics on the forum (http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=689).

As for what Romanian troops were doing well inside the Soviet Union, the same question can be asked about what were they doing in Czechoslovakia and Austria. The answer would be fighting against the enemy. The Allies did not stop at the borders of Germany, but went on fighting until they defeated it.

Alex, the Soviet occupation wasn't the first Russian occupation of Romania. There were another 10 before that, equally brutal.

Related to the initial topic I have a book called Stihaci Nad Kanalem by Jiri Rajlich and Jiri Sehnal on the Czech piolots in the RAF. Obviously I don't understand a word, but it has nice pictures and a lot of tables with kills, awards, operations etc.

Victor

I am certainly aware of the notorious land sieze by the Russians.....however Germany Japan and Axis started a global war with millions of deaths all over and war atrocities which by no means fit in the comparison scale of Russian land sieze from Roumania .....in my views is absolutely OK that the Germans had to be kicked back to where they belonged to and Japan being retaliated with nukes over their stubborn arrogance...... The German and Japanese war atrocities commited during WWII can be hardly compared to anyother wars before....

The issue is that Germans put for the second time in their minds that they are blue blooded and could teach the world a lesson and for the second time they been thought one .

Frankly, I think that they were bloody fortunate that Churchill had last minute hesitations in detonanting the nukes on Berlin , because I think that they were fully deserving it as Japan did. I am not into sparking new debates but I see any point on why should people would glorify Germany as a Rumanian comrades in arms...which they weren't .....they were in Rumania just for business....primarily oil , remote bases and war support on the East

Al

Al

This post has been edited by alexkdl on March 09, 2005 10:52 am

Please no more hate for what it was. We know that today nobody wants to learn from history. We can show the reasons and the facts for what happened in those trouble days but no revenge or hate today.

Dan.

This post has been edited by Cantacuzino on March 09, 2005 10:40 am

Correct me if I'm wrong Alex,

I didn't know that Romanian troops were anywhere near Leningrad....
The ease with which some of the guys here treat important historical issues never ceases to amaze me.

this is purely the "Alied" version of the history as we all readit in the comunist history boks or in the nationalistic discovery documentaryes


Anyway, is this movie ever been on romanian cinemas? Der Untergang is gonna be soon!

This post has been edited by cipiamon on March 09, 2005 12:06 pm

not Leningrad, was meant Stalingrad, Crimea and else in Soviet Union, was your other remark addressed at me ?

Al

This post has been edited by alexkdl on March 09, 2005 12:34 pm