SMG's used by Romanian army

Hello all,

Does anybody know when the SMG’s became standard weapons in Romanian army, at what level (company and platoon commanders?) and in which type of units (front line, presumably?). What type and model were this first SMGs used by the Romanians and by what type of units (some sources mention MP model 1928)?

Was actually the Mauser mod. 1932 (6,65 mm) used by the Romanian paratroopers until 1943 the famous Finnish Suomi SMG? Does anybody know for what reason a small caliber SMG (criticized by some for exactly that reason) was chosen for the paras, while the rest of the army (supposedly) used the 9 mm SMG?
On the site, in the “Organization” section (“Infantry” sub-section) the fall of 1943 is mentioned as the moment when SMG became the standard weapon for company, platoon and section commanders in the infantry. Until then what was the standard weapon of these officers (NCOs)? What SMG models were used besides Brettta, MP 40 and Orita, and in what amount? What models were used before 1943 and how many SMGs had the Romanian army at the beginning of the war?

Were different models distributed to different types of units, in order to obtain at least a certain level of standardization (e. g. MP 40 to paras and mechanized units, Beretta for infantry, Orita for cavalry…)?

We used Suomi SMG? I never heard about that...

Iama

Oficially the SMG was issued to troops in 1943. Until then, the NCOs and other ranks had rifle or pistol, depending on their role in the squad. However, captured Soviet SMGs (PPS) were used on the front since 1942. The first SMGs officially used by the army were the Italian Beretta and the German MP-40, imported by Romania. Orita entered the service in 1944.

For the equipment of paratroopers, refer to this article:
http://www.worldwar2.ro/organizare/?article=19&language=en

Iama

I'm not sure about that, I was only asking...
However, the Suomi and its licence-made versions was the only 6,65 mm SMG aronnd then (and I think ever), and it was quite widely exported: "South America, the Baltic countries and Poland were objects of exporting effort before, and Sweden, Bulgaria, Denmark, Germany, Croatia and Switzerland during World War II. Manufacturing licenses were sold to Denmark, Sweden and Switzerland" (http://guns.connect.fi/gow/suomi1.html)


Maby you'll find the above linq useful

Thank you Dragos, but what about the front-line officers (platoon and company commanders) in the infantry, cavalry and mountain troops? Did they used SMGs before 1943 (and what type) as standard weapons, or what standard weapons did they use?
And what about the tank commanders…?

Edited: Hold on. I have to check the dates when I return home (from work)

OK Dragos, and thanks again...

I went on asking for two reasons:

1. You mentioned the "NCOs and other ranks" while I was intersted about the officers too

2. According to some sources (I’m not quite sure, I’ll have to check it out) there was quite an important number of SMGs in use in the Romanian army in 1941 (up to some ten thousands, if I remember well). I’m talking about books like “Istoria militara a poporului roman” (aprox. “Romanian Military History”) and “Romania in cel de-al doilea razboi mondial” (“Romania in WW 2”), “good old” ideologic books from before 1989, with a lot of bullshit about the Romanian Comunist Party role (one quite non-existent before August 23rd 1944), but still using some valid documentary sources… I think you are familiar with them… What I am sure of is that in the first of the two mentioned books there are a couple of photos with some exhibits from the National Military Museum, with SMGs like MP 28, SDP (Schmeisser-Daimler-Puch) 1940 and Brettta 1938. I guess these were not imported just in order to be displayed in a museum . Also according to an older “Top Gun” magazine issue, the Berettas used by the Romanian army were imported in two phases, one at the beginning of the WW2 (or before) and one in 1943; this second lot of weapons were especially manufactured for Romania, with Romanian language inscriptions on the guns.

Do you know wich was the situation in the other neighbouring countries armies? Did they use SMG as a standard weapon for the small units commanders (junior officers and NCOs)? If yes, it would seem odd to me that Romania was an exception...

I am not aware of any batch of SMGs imported by Romania in 1941 or before. I don't have the books you mentioned either. However, it is clear that it was wanted the usage of SMGs in 1942, since an order was placed in Germany for a number of them, of which only 8,600 SMGs were delivered by 1 September 1942 (source: Pe tarmul nord pontic, 1999). I doubt any of them entered the service of the troops on the front, as the divisions on the front were not reorganized according to the official army reorganization of 1942 (1942 Infantry Division). So about the officers and NCOs on the front before 1943 could only rely on the SMGs captured from the Soviets, or use their pistol or rifle.

The official weapon of the officers was the Beretta model 1934 pistol.

Of course not, but again, they were used by the infantry troops on the front starting from 1943.

Dragos,

I don’t think that a conclusion (at the level of the Romanian General Headquarter) that the SMGs were needed was reached only in 1942. According to “Romania in cel de-al doilea razboi mondial” (“Romania in WW 2”, published in 1989), which quotes Romanian Military Archives sources, the estimated number of SMGs needed by the Romanian army was calculated before the war (before September 1939) and it was over 40.000 (!). Probably the idea was the same with that of the later 1943 Army Organization Law, that every section or platoon commander should have a SMG. I do not think that this quantity of weapon was ever imported before 1943, but I also tend to think that it would have been a normal thing to place a procurement order for al least a part of what was perceived as needed material (the book mentions this number in the context of the efforts made in the late 30s for the Romanian army modernization). And maybe not all of the ordered weapons was delivered, but it is hard to believe that there was no SMGs in Romanian army until 1943 (excepting the paras and the captured guns).
So I repeat my previous question, does anybody knows what was the situation in the other WW 2 armies concerning this matter? I’m mainly interested in the armies of the “minor powers” – neighboring countries like Poland, Hungary, Bulgaria or small Western and Northern European countries like Belgium, Netherlands or Finland.

On the other hand, I checked "Top Gun” magazine issue I mentioned and you are right: apparently no Berettas were imported before 1943.

This post has been edited by Agarici on March 03, 2005 11:45 am

I didn't say that the conclusion was reached only in 42, but according to my info, in 1942 there was first order of which I know. In theory, the employment of SMGs may have been considered much earlier, but unfortunatelly many projects of army modernization remained only at the stage of conclusion.

It is sure that Romanian Army had in country garrisons/warehouses a number of SMGs before 1943 (the 8,600 delivered by the Germans in 1942 for instance), but I was referring to the troops on the front. Also the paratroopers were stationed in country.

Regarding the books from the communist period, I have "Istoria infanteriei romane" vol II, but no relevant information on the SMG imports, and there are some serious mistakes in there.

I have a brochure edited in 1942 by Ministerul Apararii Nationale,Subsecretariatul de Stat al Armatei de Uscat, Directia Superioara a Infanteriei
The title is long and look like this:
INSTRUCTIUNI PROVIZORII
ASUPRA
CUNOASTERII,INTREBUINTARII SI INTRETINERII PISTOALELOR MITRALIERA:

-Pistolul mitraliera Beretta
-Pistolul mitraliera Schmeisser Md.18 I
-Pistolul mitraliera Schmeisser Md.28 II
-Pistolul mitraliera Md.1940 (Deimler Puch-Steyr)
-Pistolul mitraliera Schmeisser Md.1941 (C.G.Haenel Suhl)
-Pistolul mitraliera Orita Md.1941
-Pistolul mitraliera Mauser
-Pistolul mitraliera Rus


The brochure is full of pictures of romanian soldiers handling those SMGs,accurate descriptions of maintenance and parts,shooting instructions .The Mauser is the C96 in full auto version, and the russian one is called Md.1940.I think romanian army edited such brochure because those SMGs were USED by the troops, not only for general info.

It's getting clear that in 1942 SMGs were present in Romanian barracks, but still no evidence for being delivered to the front troops until 1943.

Well...

Thank you Dragos and excellent findings Cristian! I think we are slowly getting closer to the truth.

The SMG models mentioned in the brochure Cristian was talking about covers about every model I found in “Istoria militara a poporului roman”. And I know, Dragos, that these books - which almost without exception had gen. Ilie Ceausescu among the authors or editors – may contains a lot of errors or mystifications, but I was referring only to those statements which quoted sources from military archives and to the pictures I found there…

So, first at all I do not think that we should consider the year 1943 as the turning point for the Romanian army re-armament, but only for the Romanian army reorganization. There were a lot of modifications of the frontline troops equipment before 1943, even without withdrawing the troops from the frontline. One case – mentioned on the site – is that of the 1st Armored division which received its T3 and T4 in September-October 1943, another that of the Romanian divisional anti-tank artillery receiving its 75 mm guns instead of the smaller 47 mm before the battle at the Don’s bend. And I think we all agree that these changes could have been more troublesome from the logistical or crew’s training point of view than writing a brochure, sending the guns to the troops and training the already experienced officers and NCOs from the frontline how to use a submachinegun… So why keeping these SMSs in stores in Romania??

However we already have some new info thanks to Cristian. According to the Romanian sources known so far, the first Beretta’s were imported in 1943. FALSE, as they were already mentioned in the 1942 brochure. Also many sources suggested that the MP 40 (some called it MP 41 or Schmeisser 41) were delivered no earlier than 1943, when they enter the use of the paratroopers, the tankers and some cavalry units. Again FALSE, according to the same brochure, as it is the information that Orita SMG enter in the army the inventory only in 1943-44.
Also we know now for sure that in 1942 the troops were already using the SMG, but… SINCE THEN and at WHAT LEVEL (company commander, platoon commander – only some types of troops)?

I’d say that the brochure title “Instructiuni PROVIZORII…” (PROVISIONAL Instructions…) suggests that the SMGs were not for long in the inventory of the Romanian army. Although, the large variety of models, some of them the latest, other less known (like the Daimler Puch-Steyr) or pre-war models indicates that they were probably delivered in many phases, even before the outbreak of the war. My scenario is that a provisional manual for them was edited, and it was updated (probably on a yearly bases) with the new models.

I also want to mention that in a graphic representation from the same book, “the 1940 infantry platoon commander” was armed with a pistol (probably the Beretta) and a submachine gun. I don’t say this represents any kind of evidence, but as I know these representations were by consulting the National Military Museum specialists, and they are pretty rigorous with this kind of things. I discussed with one of them once, from the section of Romanian ancient history, and he was very nervous about the people and the kids thinking the Geto-Dacs warriors in the terms of Sergiu Nicolaescu’s movies, with the curved swords and the wool hats, when they had gladium(the roman sword)-type swords and used helmets…

And sorry for my terrible (not much more terrible then other times, some would say English, but I’m sooo tired…

This post has been edited by Agarici on March 05, 2005 10:52 pm

Well… we have a problem with these Mausers C96. What on earth could they be?? Does anybody knows?

According to this site and to the other sources, the Mauser 6,65 mm SMG mod. 1932 was a standard weapon for the Romanian paratroopers until 1943 (along with ZB 24 rifle). But what was these Mausers? I search on the net and I could only find the Mauser C96 pistol, you sure know the model, it was allegedly a “legionari” favorite. The closest match in my opinion is Suomi 1932 SMG, for some reasons:
- it had the same 6,65 mm caliber, unusually small for a SMG at that time
- it was around for quite a long time not to be considered an experimental weapon
- it was reffered sometimes as Mauser because it used Mauser-type cartridges
- it was exported and produced under licence in quite large numbers
- it was considered wery accurate, an important thing for some shock toops as the paratroopers should have been
But… there’s no evidence that they really used the Suomi. Maby we should take a vote … Anybody...?

CRISTIAN – is somewhere in your brochure any image of that mysterious Mauser SMG? Could you scan it and post it here sometime?